HLLN's position of the sham elections

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HLLN's position of the sham elections

Post by admin » Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:58 am

http://www.margueritelaurent.com/pressc ... tfear.html
[quote]It is up to the Haitians living abroad to support the people of Haiti against Euro/US pressures and against desperate moves

The Leadership leads: Standing on Truth, Living without Fear

"Haiti is hallowed ground, set by our African ancestors as a place Black people could be free within a sea full of Euro/U.S. enslavers. We Haitians stand firm against the re-colonization of Haiti through dictatorship as being instigated and masked by the chaos and instability brought on by the bicentennial coup d'etat, phony elections fever, all, divide and conquer mechanisms and pretexts used to cloak and justify the poverty pimp's (USAID/US/IMF/WB) planned establishment of an ultimate US/UN mil
itary protectorship in Haiti. Haiti, some say is a dress reahearsal for the attack on Cuba and Venezuela as failed states." HLLN, October 29, 2005.


Haitian history is the greatest asset Haitians own. Thus, no real Haitian analysis may be made about Haiti without looking at our long relationship with the Euro/Americans and our relationship as Blacks to white privilege.

Would it have been "fair and free" to hold elections in Haiti in 1789 in the days of slavery where the candidates able to run are co-opted, Europeanized or light-skinned blacks, and where all the African leaders respected by the people are jailed, killed, are maroons in hiding or forced into exile by the European slavers; where those fighting slavery, like the people of Bel Air and Site Soley today are "pacified," demonized and threatened with imminent death by the powers-that-be if they don't stop their resistance and get their OAS "voting" tags; and, where only those Affranchis CHOSEN and vetted by Rochambeau (today represe
nted by the Brazilian generals, the UN, OAS proxies for Bush, Canada, France and the US) are freely allowed to run for office? Of course not. Elections under slavery could not possibly have been said to be "free and fair." Similarly, elections-by-selection, under this U.S.-installed Latortue government, which puppet government has no popular support, maintains itself in power only through daily terror and a UN/US-supported and financed repression, that has killed over 10,000 people, sent countless to prison and to exile, such proposed elections are simply no less bogus and disingenuous as elections would have been in Haiti under slavery.

How are Haitians to hold "fair and free" elections that will empower the people of Haiti and serve their national interests while they are under occupation and ruled by a foreign-imposed puppet government from Miami?

The truth is that these upcoming selections cannot set Haiti free; cannot assure Haitians that every decision made and USAID/IMF/World Bank death-p
lan and other foreign-sponsored contracts entered into after Feb. 29, 2004, by the imposed Latortue government, on behalf of Haiti as a nation, will be categorically confirmed unconstitutional, and a total violations of Haitian sovereignty, dignity, and international laws and certainly not binding on the peoples of Haiti or their fairly elected officials, whatsoever. How could a President elected while the people are under U.N. guns and "ruling" with said U.N. guns provide Haitians with better treatment as human beings, vested with HUMAN RIGHTS, not anyone's chattel to be DICTATED to by the OAS, UN, US, France or Canada or their Haitian overseers, if they are the very ones conducting the elections and choosing the candidates in the first place?

Are we to believe the election-by-selection of either Rene Preval, Dumarsais Simeus, Charles Baker or Marc Bazin has even the HOPE of bringing about the end of the corrupt international community's interference in Haitian affairs, its support for barbarism, dea
th squads, the bloody Haitian army, economic death plans or that these elections carry even the HOPE for restoring Haitian dignity, of providing fair and equal opportunities in public life to every Haitian and will move Haiti towards an inclusive, participatory, non-militarized and free Haiti? Right! Not a chance. Nothing healthy, legal and lasting may grow from the swamp of this coup d'etat sewage, or under this climate of desperation, insecurity and horrific human rights abuses by the UN and the US-imposed Miami government. Fact is, Haiti must be set free first, before Haitians may even begin to end the reign of impunity brought on by the bi-centennial coup d'etat or to institute authentic Haitian development and Haitian empowering policies in Haiti.

*

It is up to Haitians living abroad to support the people of Haiti against Euro/US pressures and against desperate moves. Today the majority of the peoples of Haiti are cornered and hunted as in the times of slavery. On the matter of Fanmi Lava
las' participating in these elections, the respected pro-democracy militant of Site Soley, John Joël Joseph, accurately puts the matter in perspective when he says the people of Site Soley "have decided to vote in these elections to avoid providing a pretext for repression..."

Thus there is NO QUESTION this "voting" in Haiti is being IMPOSED on the majority of Haitians. These elections are based on fear and desperation. The people of Haiti are not exercising free will in this matter. They are operating under military occupation and censorship.

Below is an AHP report on the matter of elections entitled "National grassroots cells of Fanmi Lavalas in Cité Soleil are declare support for René Préval and demand the release of all the political prisoners."

There is no doubt the grassroots democracy movement in Haiti, the majority poor in Haiti, especially the resisting poor in Site Soley and Bel Air are under UN/US guns to vote as the whites settlers want them to, or be indefinitely incarcerate
d, or get shot.

But we Haitians in the Diaspora are not under such desperate pressures. It falls, therefore, on us to hold the flame of hope and liberty alive. To clarify and clear the Willie Lynch-type deliberately strummed conflicts and confusion until Haitians in Haiti may exercise free will without fearing the UN/PNH's summary executions or arbitrary
imprisonment.

It falls on us-Haitians of greater means to mobilize against these elections and convey to our brothers and sisters in Haiti that they are indeed not alone in their fight against US/Euro might and imperialistic barbarity.

HLLN stands on these truth, no matter how surreal these selections become. We shall always categorically denounce these rigged elections while understanding and supporting the people of Site Soley, Bel Air, Milot and throughout Haiti maneuvers to stay alive in accordance with the above quoted statement of Joël Joseph (See Oct. 24, 2005 AHP report below for full quote.) HLLN stands on the 5-points and sh
all carry them forth for the grassroots until the repression is lifted.

In sum, on behalf of all who have perished for Haiti's liberty since 1503, HLLN takes this opportunity to strongly denounce all the current presidential candidates in Haiti without distinction, including Preval, Bazin, Simeus. All are collaborators. For, by their willingness to ignore that Father Jean Juste and Yvon Neptune, et al, are falsely imprisoned; by their willingness to run for office in these anti-democratic elections - by their sanctioning of these rigged elections in spite of the coup d'etat repression, massacres, jailings, apartheid and occupation climate- they indeed only formally legitimize and are helping to solidify dictatorship, occupation and the recolonization of Haiti.

HLLN, Oct. 25, 2005

[/quote]

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:12 pm

Jaf and HLLN,

You seem to be facing an insurmontable challenge in convincing those who agree with you against the coup and the illegitimacy of the current political structure that there is a better alternative to the elections. So far, at best, your alternative and opposition policy appear to be no different than that of the Convergence. That is, denouncing that the current administration or structure is bad without providing a better alternative. The latter is essential to win people to your cause. Otherwise you leave a political vaccuum that the elections, as flawed and unfair as they can be, seem better than "just say no" without providing a better alternative. Because the Aristide camp failed to provide the people with a clear and better alternative, the elections may appear to the people as their best hope to an improvement of life and to the freedom you so eloquently articulated. Certainly, these flawed elections will not bring, at
least in the short run, an end to international interference in Haitian affairs. But, they provide more hope than the do-nothing and protest strategy advocated by those who are against them. As leaders, you have a responsibility to provide leadership. That leadership should come in the form of ideas and alternatives to the elections that people can look at and consider as a better course to follow for Haiti.

"Just say no" and do nothing will bring more chaos than we are now experiencing. Even if we can return Aristide by some miracle, the situation is likely to get worse because he will have to fight the same obstacles that led to his forced departure and the current cahotic situation. His enemies are not likely to give up. That is why intelligent administrations avoid burning bridges with the opposition and compromise, not on substance such as the rights of the masses, but on forms and less substantial tactics. For instance, you need a simple majority of 51 to govern and not a large majority of 95%.
The disadvantages of governing with a simple 51% majority are far less outweighted by the consequences of trying fraudulently to govern with 95%. Those kinds of errors are fatal because they provide ammunitions to a weak opposition which had none in the first place. While those who do not agree with the coup and the current state of affairs still want to listen to a more hopeful choice, you need to do better than denouncing. You also need to lead the way into better cooperation between Haitians of all stripes and work for a common goal of a better Haiti.

Ezili Danto
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Joined: Sat May 31, 2003 11:57 pm

No Free Ride. Don't disconnect from what you truly want

Post by Ezili Danto » Mon Nov 07, 2005 12:38 am

Onè e respè la sosyete;

Hello Jaf, your comments reflect that Dessaline's courage is still alive and well in 2005.

Michel nau and jmflorestal, thank you for your comments and this dialogue.


michel nau wrote:[quote]
Therefore let's enjoy the ride!!
Paske sot ki bay, imbesil ki pa pran!!
[/quote]


With respect, I would remind one and all, there's never a free ride. He who pays the cost is the boss. Period, no comma.

Here is another way of life that is more RELIABLE and responsible:

[quote] “Be true to the highest within your soul and then allow yourself to be governed by no customs or conventionalities or arbitrary man-made rules that are not founded on principle.” Ralph Waldo Trine [/quote]



jmflorestal wrote: [quote]
You seem to
be facing an insurmountable challenge in convincing those who agree with you against the coup and the illegitimacy of the current political structure that there is a better alternative to the elections. So far, at best, your alternative and opposition policy appear to be no different than that of the Convergence. That is, denouncing that the current administration or structure is bad without providing a better alternative. The latter is essential to win people to your cause.[/quote]

It's more than “HLLN's cause” jmflorestal. It's the freedom of the people of Haiti. All of us must propose the alternative to tyranny is that Haiti regain its sovereignty, its autonomy.

jmflorestal, you ask what are "better alternative to the elections."

Here are HLLN's answers and CHOICES: Release of all the political prisoners, stop the killings of unarmed people, the state sponsored repression and disempowerment of the people of Haiti in favor of foreign interests. Instead, pursue policies
to bring down the cost of living, subsidize education, health care and housing for the poor, gas prices, food prices. Empower Haitian workers and parents, not just NGOs and foreign workers living in wealthy gated communities in Port au Prince in the midst of inhuman poverty, who are the true recipients, not Haitians, of the billions in foreign-AID monies and who get to dispense it to subvert Haitianist development at will and whim.......return the exiles, return to constitutional rule through authentic elections duly supervised by the people of Haiti and by leaders they choose and trust to carry forward their interests.

For more specifics, peruse HLLN's Haiti Resolution and the 5-points from the grassroots.
http://www.margueritelaurent.com/law/5_ ... roots.html , and ,


There's nothing IMPOSSIBLE about these choices. All it takes is unrelenting commitment and willingness and they may readily be brought into manisfest
ation.

HLLN supports Haitians leading from the front, not taking two three steps backwards to move one step forward. We believe our goals, our CHOICES, our INTENTIONS will lead us to the acts, behaviors, the methods, the ways of getting there, not the other way around.

I think someone once wrote, “when chasing a dream, look to your heart, not to your reality. “

That, jmflorestal, is the way of creation, of bringing our desires to manifestation, of conquering the seemingly impossible.

To concentrate on how impossible it seems, is self-defeating.

HLLN not only denounces the sham elections, but:

Urges the coup d'etat countries of France (& European Union), Canada and the US to withdraw support for elections to be held under the current conditions of repression in Haiti, which include hundreds of political prisoners, police killings and terror, and the exclusion of the poor from participation;

* Ask for the immediate release of Amnesty International prisone
r of conscience Father Gérard Jean-Juste, former Prime Minister Yvon Neptune, the folksinger Annette “Sò Ann” Auguste, and all other political prisoners;

* HLLN campaigns so that these countries, especially the US stop selling arms to Haiti's corrupt Miami government and discontinue "training and logistical support" for the human rights-abusing Haitian National Police, and withdraw support for the UN “peacekeeping” mission-turned into a colonial occupying army, repressing and exploiting the Haitian population (We support Congresswoman Barbara Lee's current bill to ban arms to Haiti)

* Support the positions of CARICOM , Congressional Black Caucus and the African Union, demanding an investigation into the circumstances of removal of Haiti's constitutionally elected government;

* Ask for return of those sent to exile because of the coup d'etat and for national dialogue before free and fair elections without repression may be held.

Yes, we agree jmflorestal that the challenges are g
reat.

But no, they are not “insurmountable.” Our rallying point is and will always be, the feat of the ancestors in 1804.

Today, when the majority in Haiti think of voting in a new government, they necessarily want one that will promote LIFE in Haiti, not dependency, not death or prisons. (see, Turning Haiti into a (Penal) Colony by Marguerite Laurent at: )

It would be strange if it were otherwise.

Every human being on this planet has the right to life. The basics are - clean water, food, shelter, clothing, clean air, health care and protection. HLLN defines these as basic human rights and entitlements of every Haitian. The raison d'etres for the existence of any family, be it community, nation, government. A government should exists to orderly provide the requisite needs for the maintenance of LIFE , liberty and, at least, physical security to its own members, own citizens. The pursuit of happiness? Well, that too is
essential to the human soul. People who are able to provide for their own needs are able to assert their social and political rights. But, in Haiti we are still at the NEEDS level - that is – search for clean water, food, shelter, clothing, clean air, health care and protection. Haitians won't get to personal development if the basic are denied .


Does Haiti own the resources, within its own borders to provide clean water, food, shelter, clothing, clean air, health care and protection to its own people? All 9 million or so of them?

No doubt. There was a time before the first occupation and even years after, when the people, though poor in coins, could simply live off the fruits of Haiti's lands.


Decades of improper governance and fleecing of Haiti's resources, its harvests flown out to feed others, and today in 2005 we are being told, our choices, are only of death, imprisonment, debt, dependency and foreign domination.

Should the people accept these as CHOICES? Why? B
ecause educated Haitians are programmed to believe imperialism and dependency are inevitable, unconquerable and that freedom and pursuing our own Haitian self-interests are IMPOSSIBLE? Unreasonable, impractical?

Perhaps we need to be reminded that no dream is too big to achieve. Desaline dreamed BIG. So big that the imperialist was HAPPY to take on and implement Toussaint Louverture's vision of a Black rule French Colony in Haiti. Something they had vehemently rejected, kidnapped and murdered Toussaint for promulgating.

We must remember that lesson, Desaline's legacy and not CONTRACT our dreams to be "more palpable" to the former-slaveowners, whatsoever. We only need be palpable to our selves. Otherwise. we become less than equal, give away our own manhood, humanity, womenhood, dignity, self-respect. "To thy own self be true" is still a very viable edict worth extending.

For, at the darkest of hours, Desaline dreamed bigger than Toussaint, even though it was definitely IMPRACTICAL. Des
alin gave us what we are today because he believed we were worthy of self-defense, self-respect, self-determination. He created not a Black ruled French Colony, but way, way ahead of his time, within the depths of slavery, he founded a Black ruled independent nation.

To make that into a reality today, is still our Haitian destiny, our sacred trust. Because the French came back and with the 1825 debt, ecclesiaticaly colonialism and pepe education, were firmly able to establish in Haiti Toussaint's vision – A black ruled French colony, replaced in 1915 by a black-rued US client state.

In 1990, the people had their first free election and movement towards Haitian rule that came from the people of Haiti, for the people of Haiti. Today, after two foreign-sponsored coup d'etats against authentic electoral democracy issuing from the people, for the people, by the people of Haiti, we are under occupation and an imposed Miami-puppet government. The masses in Haiti want and are struggling to gain back t
heir sovereignty.

HLLN refuses to extend the the snares. To get caught in the trap of these coup d'etat elections intended to further destroy Haiti's grassroots and democracy movement. Promulgating for these rigged elections will not bring back Haitian sovereignty. Thus, we speak up. Denounce the elections and propose choices as above outlined. How do we actualized these choices? I believe that may have been the heart of jmflorestal's question.

If HLLN had a crystal ball, we'd use it.

We don't pretend to know the sure and guaranteed route from foreign imposed coup d'etat repression to sovereignty. But we know going in the opposite direction, with these rigged elections, won't get us from occupation to Haitian self-rule. So we stand on principle and use our resources, skills and lifeforce to push for the 5-points and the Haiti Resolution.

Knowing that [quote]One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time. And
r Gide[/quote]

For, it takes courage to stand on principle when everyone is telling us Haitians should accept substandards, double standards and the likes of Guy Philipe, Jodel Chamblaim, Latortue, for instance, as leader, as men deserving freedom, glory, support and govenment jobs in Haiti. There are frankly not many Haitians out here even trying to fight these insults and racist impositions as frankly and upfront, except the people dying in Haiti.

knowing precisely how to cut the chains being fasten onto Haiti it is not as important to us as the INTENTION to move towards that Desaline goal and not betray that goal, no matter how impossible it looks every second of the day.

Perhaps I'll end this with two quotes worth pondering. What helps us at HLLN make it through the darkness and still hold on to principle and purpose:

[quote] “The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and, if they can't find
them, make them. GEORGE BERNARD SHAW, 1893 [/quote]


[quote] The way you activate the seeds of your creation is by making choices about the results you want to create. When you make a choice, you mobilize vast human energies and resources which otherwise go untapped. All too often people fail to focus their choices upon results and therefore their choices are ineffective.

If you limit your choices only to what seems possible or reasonable, you disconnect yourself from what you truly want and all that is left is a compromise.

ROBERT FRITZ[/quote]

Maximum respect,

Ezili Danto

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:03 pm

[quote]Here are HLLN's answers and CHOICES: Release of all the political prisoners, stop the killings of unarmed people, the state sponsored repression and disempowerment of the people of Haiti in favor of foreign interests. Instead, pursue policies to bring down the cost of living, subsidize education, health care and housing for the poor, gas prices, food prices. Empower Haitian workers and parents, not just NGOs and foreign workers living in wealthy gated communities in Port au Prince in the midst of inhuman poverty, who are the true recipients, not Haitians, of the billions in foreign-AID monies and who get to dispense it to subvert Haitianist development at will and whim.......return the exiles, return to constitutional rule through authentic elections duly supervised by the people of Haiti and by leaders they choose and trust to carry forward their interests. [/quote]

I wholeheartedly agree with
you that these are lofty goals that should have happened. While some may happen in the distant future, when it is convenient for those involved in the race for power, others may not happen that soon. By that time, it would be too late for them to be as meaningful as you want them to be. In reality, they are not alternatives because there is a lack of power and ability to enforce them. While they are great ideas we all, people who care about justice, can agree on, they are not realistic. Having ideas that are not realistic - meaning taking into account the reality of their implementation - it's like having no ideas at all. In fact, it may just be a waste of time to spend time on them. That makes the elections, whether one agrees with them or not, perhaps the only possible outcome of the unacceptable status quo. Frankly, the more an observer looks at what is happening with the elections, the less appealing they become. But if not them, what? The unconstitutional order currently in place is imploding itself. Ev
en if it does not, you are left with the "Accord du 4 Avril" as the laws of the land, which is the status quo. Of the two evils, government by the "Accord du 4 Avril" and the elections, the latter appears to be the lesser of two evils.

[quote]There's nothing IMPOSSIBLE about these choices. All it takes is unrelenting commitment and willingness and they may readily be brought into manisfestation. [/quote]

I admire your obstination and your determination. But they sound naive and reflect a lack of adequate understanding of the real politics in the twenty first century. It is easy to tell haitian people with no potable water, no basic life necessities, no security, no food to feed themselves and their family, and nothing to hope for in life to continue to suffer until they can reach ideals that seem to be further and further out of their reach during their lifetime. It is another one to be in that situation and want to endure it. Without their willingness to
accept that sacrifice, you have no power. There is the dilemma and challenge I mentioned earlier.

[quote]HLLN supports Haitians leading from the front, not taking two three steps backwards to move one step forward. We believe our goals, our CHOICES, our INTENTIONS will lead us to the acts, behaviors, the methods, the ways of getting there, not the other way around.[/quote]

You are preaching to the choir, here!

[quote]I think someone once wrote, “when chasing a dream, look to your heart, not to your reality. “

That, jmflorestal, is the way of creation, of bringing our desires to manifestation, of conquering the seemingly impossible.

To concentrate on how impossible it seems, is self-defeating.[/quote]
The key word here is SEEMINGLY. And, that is the difference between those who get things done and those who don't. If one cannot make the
difference between what has been done, what can be done, and what cannot be done, ideas will never move to a level of implementation. It is not enough to want. It must also be possible. What has been done is usually a good indication of what can be done! And that is before you add the element of time in it as a variable.

[quote]To concentrate on how impossible it seems, is self-defeating.

HLLN not only denounces the sham elections, but:

Urges the coup d'etat countries of France (& European Union), Canada and the US to withdraw support for elections to be held under the current conditions of repression in Haiti, which include hundreds of political prisoners, police killings and terror, and the exclusion of the poor from participation;

* Ask for the immediate release of Amnesty International prisoner of conscience Father Gérard Jean-Juste, former Prime Minister Yvon Neptune, the folksinger Annette “Sò Ann” Auguste, and all other political prisoners; [
/quote]

Here, I totally agree with you. But will those coup d'etat countries listen to you? Why? Only power make them move. Do you have any that can force them to do what you want them to do?


[quote]* HLLN campaigns so that these countries, especially the US stop selling arms to Haiti's corrupt Miami government and discontinue "training and logistical support" for the human rights-abusing Haitian National Police, and withdraw support for the UN “peacekeeping” mission-turned into a colonial occupying army, repressing and exploiting the Haitian population (We support Congresswoman Barbara Lee's current bill to ban arms to Haiti)

* Support the positions of CARICOM , Congressional Black Caucus and the African Union, demanding an investigation into the circumstances of removal of Haiti's constitutionally elected government;

* Ask for return of those sent to exile because of the coup d'etat and for national dialogue before free and fair elect
ions without repression may be held. [/quote]

Same thing! Will they do what you want them to do, and why?

[quote]Yes, we agree jmflorestal that the challenges are great.

But no, they are not “insurmountable.” Our rallying point is and will always be, the feat of the ancestors in 1804. [/quote]

These are just talks! There is nothing to back them up: people, money, power.

[quote]Every human being on this planet has the right to life. The basics are - clean water, food, shelter, clothing, clean air, health care and protection. HLLN defines these as basic human rights and entitlements of every Haitian. The raison d'etres for the existence of any family, be it community, nation, government. A government should exists to orderly provide the requisite needs for the maintenance of LIFE , liberty and, at least, physical security to its own members, own citizens. The pursuit of happiness? Well, that too is essent
ial to the human soul. People who are able to provide for their own needs are able to assert their social and political rights. But, in Haiti we are still at the NEEDS level - that is – search for clean water, food, shelter, clothing, clean air, health care and protection. Haitians won't get to personal development if the basic are denied . [/quote]

Again, you are preaching to the choir, here!

[quote]Does Haiti own the resources, within its own borders to provide clean water, food, shelter, clothing, clean air, health care and protection to its own people? All 9 million or so of them?

No doubt. There was a time before the first occupation and even years after, when the people, though poor in coins, could simply live off the fruits of Haiti's lands. [/quote]

I am not as affirmative as you are to that question. Part of the reasons for the class, political and economic struggles in Haiti is because they are too many people for insuffici
ent resources for all of them to live on. The last time I read it, less than 20% of haitian lands are fertile. Jacques Cousteau, before his death, went to Haiti to survey the bottom of the seas. He found nothing under it, no fish, no sea life. I would like to know the sources for that richness of the country.

[quote]Decades of improper governance and fleecing of Haiti's resources, its harvests flown out to feed others, and today in 2005 we are being told, our choices, are only of death, imprisonment, debt, dependency and foreign domination.[/quote]

Unfortunately, foreing domination is the choice made by haitians who can't stand somebody else running the country besides themselves. They would rather have a foreign power control it, if they can't. That is why we have foreigners in haiti today. If we could compromise, we would not have those problems you are being told. The reality is that all haitian governments practice those choices, as long as it allows t
hem to remain in POWER. The choice of the world POWER is deliberate. There is no public service in Haiti. There are just those who want to have POWER.

[quote]Should the people accept these as CHOICES? Why? Because educated Haitians are programmed to believe imperialism and dependency are inevitable, unconquerable and that freedom and pursuing our own Haitian self-interests are IMPOSSIBLE? Unreasonable, impractical?[/quote][/quote]
Unfortunately, the people and their happiness have nothing to with this. It is just an elite group of Haitians with some education fighting for power.


I will have to stop here. Hopefully, I will find time to continue with the answers.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:46 pm

[quote]Perhaps we need to be reminded that no dream is too big to achieve. Desaline dreamed BIG. So big that the imperialist was HAPPY to take on and implement Toussaint Louverture's vision of a Black rule French Colony in Haiti. Something they had vehemently rejected, kidnapped and murdered Toussaint for promulgating.[/quote]

If what you said is true - NO DREAM IS TO BIG TO ACHIEVE - perhaps we should start making the young Haitian teenagers from Saltrou, Marmelade, Pointe-a-Pitre, Anse-à-Galais, as an example, to dream about becoming as rich as Bill gates when he grows up! As you also said: [quote]I think someone once wrote, “when chasing a dream, look to your heart, not to your reality.“[/quote]

The bigger the dream the more you achieve. So, why not dreaming be as rich as Bill Gates, according to your way of thinking. Those are just political hyperboles! The problem with
your statement is that you failed to qualify the dreams reasonable. In fact, your statement may be true if the dreams are becoming a doctor, an engineer, a succesful business man, even a sport star - though there are natural limitations there due to in-born talents.

[quote]For, at the darkest of hours, Desaline dreamed bigger than Toussaint, even though it was definitely IMPRACTICAL.[/quote]

Ironically, Dessalines was lucky Toussaint did all the hard work for him that made his independence war possible. Dessalines was also lucky in some other way, timing. His war happen at a time when Napoleon was busy fighting the Englishmen, the Austrians, the Prussians, and most of Europe for that matter and were not able to devote more resources to fighting the unruly colony. But, more importantly, Dessalines was lucky that yellow fever destroyed most of Leclerc's army, including Leclerc himself.

[quote]We don't pretend to know the sure and guarantee
d route from foreign imposed coup d'etat repression to sovereignty. But we know going in the opposite direction, with these rigged elections, won't get us from occupation to Haitian self-rule. So we stand on principle and use our resources, skills and lifeforce to push for the 5-points and the Haiti Resolution.[/quote]
That is understandable, and I am glad you don't totally reject pragmatism.

[quote]For, it takes courage to stand on principle when everyone is telling us Haitians should accept substandards, double standards and the likes of Guy Philipe, Jodel Chamblaim, Latortue, for instance, as leader, as men deserving freedom, glory, support and govenment jobs in Haiti. There are frankly not many Haitians out here even trying to fight these insults and racist impositions as frankly and upfront, except the people dying in Haiti.[/quote]

No, being realistic does not mean lowering our standards and compromising our integrity. Some without scru
pules or compassion for the less fortunate do not care. But, fighting for what is right while keeping in mind realistic goals is not lowering our standards. It is instead being winners not dreamers.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:04 pm

Also, I wanted to add that I don't want some who read my comments here to take them like a defense of those who are responsible for the current situation in Haiti in deposing a democratically elected government. I have condemened what they did, as they are greatly responsible for the current nightmare now in Haiti. In arguing for a realistic approach to solving the problems in Haiti, I don't want to provide ammunitions to the staus quo. Nothing could have been so further from my mind.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:21 pm

[quote]That's not a BIG dream Jean-Marie. In fact several times over it has come to pass that a poor son of peasants in Haiti made it big and became rich. Doesn't Siméus presents himself as such. But, that is not a big dream on the scale of that of Dessalines my friend. We are here talking about a man who took upon himslef the defeat of white supremacy's greatest armies of the time to liberate a people held in bondage over hundreds of years. [/quote]

No, Simeus is not in Bill Gates' league and, I, can venture this, will never be. I don't know how much is Simeus worth. Some say his company is worth about $100 milions, of which not all are his. Bill Gates was worth over $40 billions, the last I remembered. That's about 400 times the best Simeus can be now. If you consider it took a lifetime for Simeus to own what he has now, he would need about 300 more life times - if you take into consideration th
at he may earn another ten to twenty millions in his remaining lifetime - for him to reach Bill Gates' wealthy status and he would have to be as lucky as he was in his current lifetime 300 more times. Just fathom the odds against that! I stand by my statement.

Now, as far as the value of a Gates' dream versus a Dessalines' type of dream, Ezili Danto did not make the distinction you made. Even if she did, you stil have to prove that one dream is better than the other. Since Haitians, in general, are not civil servants but just power angry, you would have a tough time proving the superior nobleness of one dream versus the other. In any case, Ezili Danto was referring to all dreams.

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:31 pm

Jaf wrote: [quote]We are here talking about a man (Dessalines) who took upon himslef the defeat of white supremacy's greatest armies of the time to liberate a people held in bondage over hundreds of years. This was not a personal dream, it was a NATIONAL dream. You seem fixated with personnal, individual "success" in the very narrow eurocentric way of life. But there are greater achievements in life than collecting individual assets. That's the lesson ourr ancestors tried and are still trying to impart to us...but we keep being blinded by illusions.[/quote]
But Jaf you are the one who seem fixed with personal, individual “success” in the very narrow afro centric way of life!
It's you who repeatedly individualizing and equating the independence of our country Haiti to the courage of ONE man, Jean Jacques Dessalines.
As you know, and I would like to remind you that the declaration of in
dependence of Haiti was signed by 23 heroes. 19 of them were mulattoes including Alexandre Petion, Jean Pierre Boyer, Nicolas Jeffrard, Rigaud etc..
As you later said “ This was not a personal dream, it was a National dream.
Ki donk Jaf SVP. pa nonmin non Dessalines selman si w pa gen tan pou nonmin non tout zanset nou yo.
Di nankoze radio show w yo « zanset nou yo » san preferans
Si neg bossal bouda chire, piye a te, e zotey boulonnin te fe neg Dessalines, Petion, Boyer, neg bel iniform lame an swa, bel zepolet e meday, bel botte sire klere, bel chapo ak plim de paon, bel mouchtach ak pafoutin, bel periq de la court royale nan tet yo, neg ki te kon'n li e ekri, neg ki te konin nan ki pozisyon e distance pou tire bel kout cannon san rate==si neg Ginea sa yo te fe neg kreyol e marabou sa yo konfians se paske te gen one respe nan mitan zanset nou yo.
One e respe, se sak te ini zanset nou yo.
Mwen voye yon gwo kout chapo a la rond b
ade pou ZANSET nou yo.

Respe mon fre'r Jaf

Michel

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:48 am

[quote]I encourage you to do so, if you have yet to do so. The point being that in this life, what is "valued" in a given context and under certain circumstances can become totally useless in others.[/quote]

Exactly my point! I don't want to take away anything from Dessalines's accomplishments, not only for Haiti, but also the rest of the world. In fact, many foreigners consider that after what Dessalines and the rest of the independence war veterans did, specially the architect of it, Toussaint Louverture, Haiti has not contributed much to humanity. I thought against that statement, one time, but my counter arguments were very feeble. In any case, as big as Dessalines' dreams and accomplishments were, yet he was assassinated by his own people in a very short time after his greatest accomplishments. When I was a child learning history from my F.I.C. Histoire D'Haiti by Deschamps, this assassinatio
n was a big letdown for me. How can we be so ingrate to the founder of our own country? So, the big dream you are talking about ended up as a nightmare for Dessalines and the country. Again, not take away anything from what he represents to us, he is our greatest hero, after Toussaint. I said, after Toussaint, for the latter paved the way for Dessalines and he paid with his life for it. Just for the pleasure of reminiscing, let's just repeat those words:

[quote]Koupe tèt, boule kay[/quote]

[quote] En me renversant à St Domingue, on abattu l'arbre de liberté. Mais, il repoussera plus grand et plus puissant, car ces racines sont profondes et nombreuses.[/quote]

I am sorry for not providing the exact wording, as I don't have my F.I.C. Deschamps' Histoire d'Haiti to reproduce it with me now. But, I hope i capture the essence of what Deschamps attributed to Toussaint. Can somebody help with the
exact quote of Deschamps? The point here is that the real dreamer was Toussaint. His actions, by ensuring continuity of the revolution, were noble and represented the greatest dream.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:53 am

[quote]From my research, it is absolutely clear that those words attributed to Toussaint Louverture are very unlikely to be his own. [/quote]

Are you implying that Toussaint was not dreaming of independence of Haiti and the abolishment of slavery? Corollary, are you implying that he was just another power hungry haitian politician? Please clarify.

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Post by admin » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:33 pm

Jean-Marie, who knows what Toussaint was dreaming of? I agree with Jaf that we should look first to the actions than the words and symbols (quite often fictitious) that are attributed to heroes by playwright-poet-historians.

What we KNOW from Toussaint's actions clearly indicate that he was one of History's greatest military strategists and a first-rate economic/administrative planner. Considering what resources he had at his disposition and what he ended up achieving (the short-lived but effective autonomy over ALL of Hispaniola) by playing against each other all of his natural enemies and defeating them when weakened by their own contradictions (and we are talking here of the most powerful colonial powers at the time: France, England, and Spain), one might conjecture whether he does not deserve more recognition than the likes of Nelson and Napoleon. It is also virtually certain that Toussaint did pave the way for o
ther Haitian heroes, like Dessaline, Christophe, Petion and others who stood over his broad shoulders, after he was forcibly removed from Saint Domingue. If it were not for Toussaint, for instance, Dessaline might have been nothing more in History than a nameless, frustrated dreamer. [Who knows??? Absolutely NO ONE, in spite of what anybody would like to conjecture about this.] But what do Toussaint's writings and consistent actions demonstrate? They prove uncontestably that he was pushing for THE COMPLETE AUTONOMY OF THE FRENCH COLONY OF SAINT-DOMINGUE, UNDER HIS OWN GOVERNORSHIP. Was Toussaint power-hungry? Absolutely! There is no point in trying to deny this. But I imagine that the hunger for power has to be to some extent a requirement for the type of political leadership that he offered. As to the two major objectives that you cited: a) the independence of Haiti and b) the abolishment of slavery, Toussaint may have been dreaming of those ultimate objectives, but those are OUR inferences, Jean-Mari
e. Toussaint did not leave any historical record that those were his objectives, though they may well have been. What we KNOW for certain however, based on the historical record, is that it was Dessaline that totally rejected the very idea of slavery and that it was Dessaline that fought to the death for the birth of a new independent nation.

Before Michel Nau accuses me of being prejudiced against our other heroes of mixed descent, such as Petion and Boyer, let me say that I DO suspect in fact that our heroes of mixed descent (blessed be their memory for what they have achieved in cooperation with Dessaline, Christophe, Capois Lamort, etc), yes, I DO suspect that if the White men had been more accomodating to them in granting them equal status and ALL the privileges associated with French citizenry,yes, I DO suspect that they may not have been so willing to associate themselves to poor black slaves in quest of their freedom. The historical record, both before and after the Independence of Haiti, i
s also there to buttress my suspicion. I do not say this to disparage those heroes, in fact I do bless their memory for what they have achieved, but excuse me if I do not judge them EQUAL to Dessaline in the pantheon of Haitian heroes who founded (some Haitians argue, prematurely) the Nation of AYITI. No, I do not think of them as equal in that respect. In fact, in that particular vision, Dessaline has no equal among all those leaders, even the highly venerated TOUSSAINT LOUVERTURE. Dessaline could not have done it without Toussaint, but Toussaint may not have achieved it either without Dessaline. Their objectives were not identical. Their visions were not identical. Dessaline did not merely continue with Toussaint's program. He reformulated it. And instead of looking at ifs and buts, we should at the very least give Dessaline the full credit that is his due and stop maligning him for crimes (koupe tet, boule kay) against the white race that, in magnitude, pale in comparison to what his white victims
committed against the Africans transplanted in Ayiti, including I am sure, Dessaline's own family and loved ones. Again, the historical record is there to show this in excrutiating detail.

Some choose to honor Toussaint Louverture every chance they get, and I am among those honoring him, because in matters of economic and administrative planning, Toussaint appears to have been superior, for instance, to Dessaline, by a wide margin. However, if the INDEPENDENCE of Haiti is meaningful to any of us, Dessaline is the FIRST PERSON that we should look to, because it was HIS DREAM more than any other leader and he is the one who delivered it to us. On the other hand, Toussaint would probably have chosen a less risky path, politically speaking, and a more cohesive path, economically speaking. Would Haitians would have fared better, under Toussaint's continued leadership? Quite frankly, I DO NOT KNOW. It all depends on the color of the glasses we wear when looking at History, and it depends very much on
how external forces would have responded to Toussaint's method of empowering his African brothers, if he did succeed in repelling Napoleon/Leclerc/Rochambeau's mission-critical objective to crush all resistance in Saint-Domingue and re-establlish full-scale slavery, full-scale exploitation devoid of Sonthonax's previous meddling with the system. Napoleon was not seeking any form of accommodation to Toussaint, whom he hated for opposing his will. Now, an interesting question might be that if Toussaint did not believe in the hypocritical gestures of the French, and continued the resistance by taking no prisoners and succeeded the way Dessaline (and the other generals) did over the next couple of years, would Toussaint then have been able to craft a different relationship with the United States of America, in lieu of the crushing isolation to which they subjected Haiti after 1804???

I can't answer that question either, but one thing for sure, the United States played as nasty a role in Haiti's impo
verishment as an independent nation as France did as the Enslaving Power, prior to 1801.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:56 pm

One thing I must admit to both Guy and Jaf, you two have made more historical research on our heroes than I did. Although your analysis is different than mine, but yours is better structured and documented than mine. I need to learn more about them beyond what I got from my formal education. By the way, Jaf, thank you for the quote. That's exactly what I was looking for. My quick research on Google did not get me as far as what the website you quoted, although I have not have time yet to go and read it. But your quote brought to memory what I learned from Deschamps.

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Post by admin » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:01 pm

Jean-Marie, I was not going to say anything about this at first, because it was not truly relevant in the context of our discussion. But after citing the name "Deschamps" (5) times in referencing the F.I.C. book that you and I studied by heart, without a doubt, you've made me feel obliged to make a correction, since people -not as old as you and I - might be led to believe that the author of that History manual was truly "Deschamps". It was not.

F.I.C. Histoire d'Haiti, cours supérieur, was authored by Dr. J. C. Dorsainvil [Editions Henri Deschamps]. If you go back to your citations above, you probably meant to say "Dorsainvil" and not "Deschamps". Interesting mistake, though.

Now repeat after me, until you know it by heart:

[quote]
Arrêter Toussaint était une opération difficile à conduire et dont l'échec entraînerait des conséquences d'une extrême gravité. A la moindre alerte, il pouvait se jeter
dans les bois et déclencher ce que Leclerc redoutait le plus: l'insurrection générale, car l'ancien gouverneur n'avait rien perdu de son influence sur les masses.

Leclerc foula aux pieds les rigides prescriptions de l'honneur militaire et imagina un guet-apens pour lequel il employa le général Brunel.

Sous prétexte de consulter sa vieille expérience sur certaines dispositions à prendre dans le canton d'Ennery, Brunet manda Toussaint sur l'habitation George (près Ennery). Le vieux Toussaint, défiant par nature, ne fut guère flatté de l'apparente déférence que l'on lui témoignait; il hésita, pesa les conséquences ou de l'acceptation ou du refus et, pour son malheur, accepta le rendez-vous. Il y fut arrêté par surprise (7 juin 1802), conduit aux Gonaives et embarqué sur La Créole. Au Cap, il fut transbordé sur le vaisseau Le Héros, et y retrouva sa famille arrêtée le même jour que lui. En mettant le pied sur Le Héros, Toussaint s'écria: "Em ne renversant, on n'a abattu à Saint-Domingue
que le tronc de l'arbre de la liberté des noirs; il repoussera par les racines parce qu'elles sont profondes et nombreuses". Paroles prophétiques, que les événements allaient réaliser sans délai.

En France, Toussaint fut séparé de sa famille et interné au fort de Joux où régnait toute l'année un froid humide et glacial. Ne pouvant sortir de sa cellule, privé de toute distraction, il ne résista pas longtemps. Le matin du 7 avril 1803 [dix mois après son arrestation], quand on entra dans son cachot, on le trouva sans vie, assis sur une chaise, près du feu, la tête appuyée contre la cheminée.

Ainsi disparut, captif sur une terre étrangère, l'homme le plus extraordinaire peut-être de notre race, celui qui s'appelait lui-même - et avec raison - le Premier des Noirs.

[/quote]
Jean-Marie, si ou di m ou pa kab resite sa pa kè ou bezwen twa ou kat kout matinèt.

Anyway, like Jaf, I have also read Toussaint's handwritten messages to his family and those he addressed
to Bonaparte while he was incarcerated, thinking perhaps that the French were honorable enough to actually deliver those letters. It is true that the French language itself was not what it is today. However, based on what I read, I too understood that it was a fanciful notion that I carried that Toussaint ever pronounced that most famous sentence attributed to him, in flawless French. Perhaps, he said it in Creole and someone saw fit to translate it in elegant French. Who knows?

As a footnote, I learned that once incarcerated, Toussaint was NEVER again allowed to see the sun again, he of the tropical island paradise. Given his harsh and worsening treatment (his food rations were repeatedly cut on orders of Napoleon, in an attempt to force Toussaint to reveal where he had hidden his supposedly vast treasure, even though Toussaint, who was renown for his frugality, never deviated from his account that he did not have any such imagined wealth).

Sorry for this great deviation from the original s
ubject of our conversation.

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HLLN on elections-Kreyol interview | Acting-in-faith

Post by Ezili Danto » Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:05 am

HLLN's position on elections and Haitians leading their own struggle for liberty

"Entèvyou ak avoka Marguerite Laurent, responsab nan Haitian Lawyers Leadership Network sou pozisyon yo fas ak eleksyon/seleksyon blan an ap fè nan peyi a epi pratik "zanmi" blan oswa etranje ki pretann mennen lit pèp Ayisyen an pou li" November 9, 2005 | interview by Dahoud Andre, Lakounewyork.com | Go to:
http://www.lakounewyork.com/emisyon11-9-05.mp3

Archive of daily Lakounewyork.com broadcast in Kreyol at:

***********************************************

Other HLLN work this week representing Haiti's struggle for liberation, equal rights and human rights:

1. An Evening of Solidarity with Bolavarian Venezuela, fe
aturing presentation by performance poet, writer/lawyer and HLLN chair, Marguerite Laurent, Esq. on WBAI Evening News, November 10, 2005, 6:00 pm -

2. See, The Nescafé machine, Common Sense, John Maxwell Sunday, November 06, 2005 , where HLLN's chairperson, Marguerite Laurent, Esq. is quoted at:



****************
Folks,

In reference to a few of the comments made above, I can simply reiterate again HLLN's response in the above-"No Free Ride" post. Simply adding that acting-in-faith for the highest of principles and purest of national and social goals may be called a prayer by some, a dream by others. Dr. King had a dream. Ghandi's prayer, Act-in-faith, nonviolence revolution inspired Dr. King. Both were assassinated. Yet the world is better that they had dreamed big and acted on those dreams.

Some of us, especially the Network I represent, are made up of individuals, who I believe would p
refer to act on the unseen world of truth, love, law, hope, redemption than resign or rationalize ourselves to live comfortably, or even uncomfortably with slavery, madness, arbitrary imprisonment, execution-style murders, lawlessness, debauchery or the various officially-sponsored abuses going on in Haiti right now.

The author of this quote below would probably call this acting-in-faith, a prayer:[quote] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen...Heb 11:l [/quote]

But, it is a hard reality also, that there are far too many, ostensibly very "educated" Haitians, at home and abroad, who seem to willingly be closing both eyes while extending both arms and legs for the shackles to be put on. Falsely believing their willingness to "be good," "moderates" and cooperative, to be "less-than;" willingness not to fight the occupation and their rigged elections, willingness to, in essence, deny their own unalienable rights, this, they seem to
say, is an acceptable ALTERNATIVE because what? It means not making the tyrants more insane! It means, they do nothing and let things role on, AS IS, without rocking the boat to make things WORSE!. And somehow those - the powerful powers-that-be in the US, UN, Canada and France - who have demonstrated, in Haiti, no less than an exceptionally callous disregard for human suffering, these thugs-in-suits and nice civilized "ties", will GIVE them SOMETHING - a good ADMINISTRATOR (President) who will facilitate only the further shackling of the poor, the expendable, the Lavalas "chimeres," but will spare them the same fate!

For those who wish to do something to stop Haiti's suffering and recolonization, I include excerpts below from HLLN pamphlet.

In struggle,

Ezili Danto
Nov. 11, 2005
**********


Excerpt from HLLN pamphet:

"...HLLN dreams of a world based on principles, values, mutual respect, equal application of laws, cooperation instead of competition and on peace
ful co-existence and acts on it. We bring to application these values, on behalf of voiceless Haitians, through a unique and unprecedented combination of art and activism.

Art
* Arts-With-the Ancestors Workshops
( )
* Jazzoetry Vodun Performances
(See the RBM Video Reel
and Carnegie Hall Performance -

* Ezili Danto's West-African-Haitian Dance Troupe


* (We hope to raise money to provide ) Merchandise, Poetry CDs, Performance DVDs and Video Documentaries


Activism



Networking & Mobilizing


Sharing info on radio and TV interviews;

Ezili Danto list serves (join our mailing by writing to erzilidanto@yahoo.com)

Circulating
human rights reports

The "Haitian Perspective" writings

News, Essays & Reflections

"We make presentations at congressional briefings and at international events.

"With the
Ezili Danto Witness Project, HLLN documents eyewitness testimonies of the sufferings brought to Haiti by the US-installed Miami regime. Revealing how the Haitian people are today suffering the greatest forms of terror and exclusion since the days of slavery
(See List of Victims, Massacres and Coup D'etat Abuses at Bush Bloodbath Brought to Haiti );

Conducts learning forums on Haiti (See, The "To-Tell-The-Truth-About-Haiti" Forums),

and , in general,

bring the Haitian voices against occupation, endless poverty and exclusion in Haiti directly to government officials, international policymakers, human rights organizations, journalists, the corporate and alternative media, schools and universities, solidarity networks...

We sponsor letter-writing campaigns to mobilize support to help free the political prisoners (See press work at and, Sample Letter Supporting HLLN's Haiti Resolution;

HLLN supports boycotts, picket lines and letter writing campaigns to boycott transnational companies are supporting coup d'etat, IMF/World Bank death plan, human rights abuses, and subservience in Haiti....

We own one of the largest Haitian list serves and sponsor:

The Haiti Resolution,

The 7 Men Anpil Chay Pa Lou Campaigns and

The FreeHaitiMovement )

..We are often quoted in the press, even the corporate press.....influencing and helping to shape the current thinking on Haiti today."

HLLN must raise funds for legal campaigns and for filing class action lawsuits at world tribunals, US and other courts, on behalf of Haitian victims of the international crimes and violation o
f Haitian human rights, interests, investments and properties in Haiti directly caused by the bicentennial coup d'etat. (See, Matters To be Investigated at:


**********************************

Volunteers and donations to continue and amplify our work are critically needed. Donate to our work, on-line at:
http://www.margueritelaurent.com/donate/donate.html
**************

*******
Help Stop the recolonization of Haiti.

The Haitian Lawyers Leadership Network provides
the tools,
information and
support network. But we need your Help to amplify our work and REACH further!

DO SOMETHING to HELP stop Haiti's suffering.

Write a letter, sponso
r a learning forum, write an OP-ED piece to your local or mainstream paper; circulate our postings, support HLLN FreeHaitiMovement events such as, the Pan-Canadian Week of Action to Condemn Sham Elections in Haiti, November 12-20, 2005;
make an on-line donation to HLLN....


********

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Fri Nov 11, 2005 7:53 am

Guy,

As usual, you are absolutely right. I was referring all the time to J.C. Dorsainville. Please do not say that to Frères Charles, my history teacher in primary school? Otherwise, martinet would be a less painful alternative than his "rigwaz'. That is what happened when one is writing and is not close to his reference library and his brain cells are changing colors! Perhaps, I should choose better my writing location in the future.

Guy, I must correct your citation. You omit to include in your quote the picture of:"Les Forts de Joux et de Larmont (jura)" with the river flowing at the bottom of the mountain topping by Fort de Joux. Thank you for the correction. I learned another lesson of patience today. Waiting is less painful than being plain wrong.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Fri Nov 11, 2005 8:23 am

[quote]But, it is a hard reality also, that there are far too many, ostensibly very "educated" Haitians, at home and abroad, who seem to willingly be closing both eyes while extending both arms and legs for the shackles to be put on. Falsely believing their willingness to "be good," "moderates" and cooperative, to be "less-than;" willingness not to fight the occupation and their rigged elections, willingness to, in essence, deny their own unalienable rights, this, they seem to say, is an acceptable ALTERNATIVE because what? It means not making the tyrants more insane! It means, they do nothing and let things role on, AS IS, without rocking the boat to make things WORSE!.[/quote]

My only response to this name calling and finger pointing is the following:

There is a big difference between fighting for POWER and fighting to free Haitians living in the countryside of Haiti or the slums
of its cities from hunger, malnutrition, healthcare, decent living, education, hope, respect by other countries, etc.

[quote]Some of us, especially the Network I represent, are made up of individuals, who I believe would prefer to act on the unseen world of truth, love, law, hope, redemption than resign or rationalize ourselves to live comfortably, or even uncomfortably with slavery, madness, arbitrary imprisonment, execution-style murders, lawlessness, debauchery or the various officially-sponsored abuses going on in Haiti right now.[/quote]

I am not anti or for Lavalas, although Lavalas used the legal and constitutional means and the others did not. But I have heard the same accusations you made in the above quotes and your post directed at the Lavalas government by its opponents during its interrupted term. I guess, they are just politicians' tools!

By the way, did you compare your so-called fight to that of Mahatma Ghandi and Dr Ki
ng?

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In the tradition of Ghandi and King, speaking truth to power

Post by Ezili Danto » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:14 am

This resolution below, brought to mind this line from jmflorestal's last post[quote]By the way, did you compare your so-called fight to that of Mahatma Ghandi and Dr King?[/quote]

As father Gerard Jean-Juste, one of the few self-less Haitians I know, lingers in jail with a thousand others for political reasons, we fight on for his and all the political prisoner's release and a stop to the annexation of Haiti by the US, which outright thievery called especially to me because it started in the sacred year marking the 200th year anniversary of independence and defeat of chattle slavery and colonialism in Haiti.

Jmflorestal, in my opinion, no nobler a cause exists for those answering to the name of "Haitian" than to stop the chains locking Haiti's already poor peoples into international debt, into a colonial status of being producers and never consumer
s of their own harvest, never having a stake in our own country's resources. That's the fight jmflorestal. That what we struggle against.

The sad part though is how, “free Haitians” with legal papers in the great American North, don't mind returning to slavery, getting themselves branded (euphemism “fingerprinted”) and digitally tagged with US/OAS (euphemism "voting") tags as “property-of-the-imperialist. I hear the Triangular Trade has morphed into the Free Trade. And voting is the latest way to re-colonize Haiti. But, hey, what do I know? So many free Blacks are running back down South to Haiti, like Simeus, to get themselves tagged. Meanwhile, Bazin and Preval, are playing the same game that didn't get Baker and Apaid the position assigned to Latortue. Both Preval and Bazin are saying to the Haitian public, vote for me "my big white man is well-connected in Washington." And to each other their campaign debate boils down to: “No, my massah's gonna get me in the Haitian palace!" No, massah is! Yep
, yep, that's the strategy poor Haiti's future rests on. Makes for an embarrassing, if not mortifying drama. Meanwhile the starving and dying masses, the it pep feel they must get voting tags are else be subject to more political repression - at being used as target practice for foreign soldiers stopping off in Haiti for some sniper training before going off to a real war.

Yes jmflorestal, all Haitians who, like that noblest of Haitians, Father Gerard Jean Juste, languishing in Latorture's jail, who are speaking against the Superpowers' tyranny brought to Haiti, are indeed speaking truth-to-power in the tradition of Gandhi and Martin Luther King, And, I would add, in the tradition of Malcom X and Marcus Garvey.

Maximum Respect,

Ezili Danto

**********
Resolution Calling For The Immediate Release of Prisoner of Conscience

Rev. Gerard Jean-Juste


WHEREAS over 400 members of the clergy, 34 U. S. Congressmen, the Miami Herald, the Miami Times, Human Rights Firs
t, Amnesty International, hundreds of thousands of Haitian-Americans in South Florida, and millions of Americans demand the immediate, unconditional release of Rev. Gerard Jean-Juste, a prisoner of conscience in Haiti and a hero to South Florida's Haitian refugee community;

WHEREAS Rev. Jean-Juste "Gerry" to millions of friends and supporters), the first ordained Haitian-American priest, moved from Boston to Miami in 1978 to fight for Haitian refugee rights, serving as Executive Director of the Haitian Refugee Center from 1979 to 1989;

WHEREAS this student of Martin Luther King and Gandhi is beloved to hundreds of thousands of Haitian refugees whose discriminatory, unjust, and illegal treatment by successive U. S. administrations he successfully challenged through innumerable federal court challenges, television appearances, printed declarations, marches, demonstrations, rallies, and public appearances in South Florida, Washington, and throughout the world;


WHEREAS in 1989, despite g
rave risks to his life, Rev. Jean-Juste returned to Haiti, then under military dictatorship, to champion the needs of Haiti's poor and their quest for democracy through his ministry, principles, example, and by speaking truth to power;

WHEREAS in 1991, he was appointed Minister for Haiti's worldwide Diaspora ("Tenth Department") by the Haitian Government;

WHEREAS during the 1991-1994 coup years, in which thousands were killed and President Clinton declared, "They're chopping people's faces off," Rev. Jean-Juste, again at grave risk, insisted on staying in hiding in Haiti;

WHEREAS for the next ten years, Rev. Jean-Juste ministered to a parish of 80,000 Haitian families in a church on a dirt road outside Port-au-Prince, organizing a program which fed 600 children twice a week, continuing to press for democracy after Aristide's February 2004 ouster, and peacefully opposing the Latortue government;


WHEREAS last October, armed men wearing black ski masks broke into his church a
nd arrested him on fabricated charges; he was imprisoned in a jail with no beds, blankets, or water to bathe; and he was released after seven weeks due to international condemnation of his imprisonment;


WHEREAS this July, visiting Miami, Rev. Jean-Juste led a non-violent protest against killings in Cite Soleil which claimed 23 lives, was subjected to public threats and urged by colleagues not to return to Haiti, but went anyway, consistent with his principles, saying he had a mission to fulfill;


WHEREAS police detained and questioned him on his arrival at Port au-Prince airport; a few days later, a pro-government mob attacked him at the funeral of a relative murdered while he was in Miami; and the government arrested him instead of his attackers and has held him ever since without formally charging him with any crime;

WHEREAS Rev. Jean-Gerry fell ill in prison and nearly died in August and sleeps on a rubber mat on a concrete floor beneath a picture of murdered Salvadoran priest
Oscar Romero;


WHEREAS U.S. Representatives Meek, Wexler, and Hastings wrote Haitian Prime Minister Latortue in September demanding Rev. Jean-Juste's freedom and the Miami Times urges a "concerted campaign" to free him, noting that securing his release is the top issue for tens of thousands of Haitians who echo the words of a local Haitian businessman, "Jean-Juste is my best friend. I'd do anything for him";

WHEREAS Rev. Jean-Juste is in jail for speaking truth to power in the tradition of Gandhi and Martin Luther King;


WHEREAS on December 10, thousands of Haitian-Americans and supporters will do the same and demand the immediate and unconditional release of this prisoner of conscience and hero of his people -- and that our government do everything in its power in this regard;


THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that as elected representatives, responsible leaders, and supporters of democracy and the rule of law, we will do everything in our power to insure Rev. Jean-Juste's
immediate release, freedom of speech, and personal safety.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:42 pm

[quote]As father Gerard Jean-Juste, one of the few self-less Haitians I know, lingers in jail with a thousand others for political reasons, we fight on for his and all the political prisoner's release and a stop to the annexation of Haiti by the US, which outright thievery called especially to me because it started in the sacred year marking the 200th year anniversary of independence and defeat of chattle slavery and colonialism in Haiti.[/quote]

I think Father Jean-Juste is a great haitian, too. Not because his plight is helping political ambitions or careers, but because I have seen him since 1983 in Miami being at the forefront of the fight for haitian refugees there. I have read many posts on this forum denouncing his unjust arrest and asking for his liberation without trying to take political mileage out of it. I also read in many news accounts of people, haitians and non-haitians alike, asking fo
r his release. So, HLLN does not have a monopoly on his defense. In fact, your efforts in using his name are kind of late, since so many people preceded you and tried harder.

[quote]Jmflorestal, in my opinion, no nobler a cause exists for those answering to the name of "Haitian" than to stop the chains locking Haiti's already poor peoples into international debt, into a colonial status of being producers and never consumers of their own harvest, never having a stake in our own country's resources. That's the fight jmflorestal. That what we struggle against.[/quote]

I did not realize you also believe that you, or HLLN, have a monopoly on the word "Haitian" as well. I thought the people who supported President Aristide, whether during the first term or the second term, among other things, believed in a better life for poor haitians and a better place for Haiti among nations. Although I think that President Aristide was not treated fairly by his opposition, he f
ailed to deliver on the promises made to his followers during the time he was in office (which by the way does not justify the unconstitutional termination of his term in office). Because he had a responsibility to those who believed in him, he had a duty of putting their interests first. In not so doing, he allowed his administration to fail without acomplishing anything for posterity that will benefit those who put their trust in him.

[quote]The sad part though is how, “free Haitians” with legal papers in the great American North, don't mind returning to slavery, getting themselves branded (euphemism “fingerprinted”) and digitally tagged with US/OAS (euphemism "voting") tags as “property-of-the-imperialist. I hear the Triangular Trade has morphed into the Free Trade. And voting is the latest way to re-colonize Haiti. But, hey, what do I know? So many free Blacks are running back down South to Haiti, like Simeus, to get themselves tagged. [/quote]


This is nice sarcasm, which by the way does not feed hungry haitians living in misery in Haiti. The whole origin of this discussion was my trying to tell you that your argument against the elections did not provide a better alternative to haitians. I was not at the same time advocating for the elections. I just thought that the poor haitian people who cannot wait to feed their families did not have the luxury of not voting. All I heard so far is empty rhetoric. There is still no thoughtful and realistic proposed alternative to the elections. At least, Father Jean-Juste was feeding the poor, when he was not working the asphalt in Miami fighting for haitian refugees!

[quote]Yes jmflorestal, all Haitians who, like that noblest of Haitians, Father Gerard Jean Juste, languishing in Latorture's jail, who are speaking against the Superpowers' tyranny brought to Haiti, are indeed speaking truth-to-power in the tradition of Gandhi and Martin Luther King, And, I would add, in the tra
dition of Malcom X and Marcus Garvey.[/quote]

Dr. King and Mahatma Gandhi were doing more than just talking, and so did Father Jean-Juste as I mentioned above.

Ezili Danto
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A question of lack of knowledge or pretense?

Post by Ezili Danto » Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:31 pm

Onè e respè la sosyete.

Jmflorestal, it's hard to find time to reply, so this may be my last post here on this topic.

Jmflorestal, thank you for your post above. Yes, you are right. Father Jean Juste is exceptional. Yes, HLLN doesn't have a monopoly on Jean-Juste's defense. That is true. We never asserted we did. We also never asserted that either I or HLLN have a monopoly on the word "Haitian" as well. Frankly, I fail to see anything in our post or writings which claims these monopolies.

But you go so much further than just say this.

One assertion made above could be taken to imply HLLN's work is about using the plight of Jean Juste to further "political ambition" and “career.”

Another is that HLLN is just about talk and no action.

Further, taking the totality of your posts herein collectively, it seems the statement being made is that I and or HLLN prov
ide no concrete defense or DO things that empower the Haitians under UN guns and Latortue's Miami government.

But perhaps I'm reading it all wrong. So, just on the rare possibility this is genuine and there are questions as to what I or HLLN do besides write or are posted on windowsonhaiti to express our concerns for the suffering people of Haiti, I'll answer for HLLN.

jmflorestal wrote[quote]In fact, your efforts in using his name are kind of late, since so many people preceded you and tried harder. [/quote]

I wonder, my friend, what this assertion of "kind of late," "preceded you" or "tried harder" is actually based on? Perhaps you have visited the prisoners at the National Penitentiary as we have. Saw and spoke to very young, and very frightened and fairly "no-name" Haitian men, students, shoemakers, street vendors, et al - packed in small jail cells, like sardines (like Haiti was the hull of an old slave shape) with open sewers outside their cell bars, expose
d to the open air, sun, rain and various climate vicissitudes, with flies flying into their eyes, rats scurrying about, a bucket for toilet, the dirt floor their bed and their skin scratching and talked to their mothers who can't afford to bring them food, pay the ransom wanted by the authorities for their release or pay for even the car fare it would take to get to visit their indefinitely detained love ones, providing it was allowed. Perhaps you've spoken, face-to-face to Prime Minister Yvon Neptune at the National Penitentiary, straining to hear his hoarse whisper telling you, trusting you with what he wants the world to know about what's happening to him and Haiti.

Perhaps HLLN wasn't the one Prime Minister Yvon Neptune's family called to write about the maneuverings to exile him or asked to help sound the international alarm to prevent his being sent to exile against his will. Perhaps you have stood for hours at the Haitian airport as a US spokesperson tried as hard as possible to keep you f
rom getting to the political prisoners. Perhaps you were on the telephone with father Jean Juste and Bill Quigley as Father Jean Juste was rushed out of the church after being beaten and was being "questioned" and "detained for his own protection" by MINUSTHA forces, for more than 8 hours before finally being put under arrest by the Haitian police after the Jack Roche funeral. Perhaps you know of some other lawyer besides Bill Quigley who was with father Jean Juste that whole day, who I spoke to directly in order to convey to the world the FIRST news of this ordeal, blow-by-blow, both at the church and while in detention. Perhaps you, and not HLLN lawyers and collaborators, have sat with children, men and women from Bel Air, Site Soley, Martissant, et al, with exploding bullets in their bellies from MINUSTHA guns and tried to find the medical help to save their lives. Perhaps you are watching videos from the Ezili Danto Witness Project taken by eyewitness and survivors, explaining the names of the dead, whose
head was just blown off, and whose mother, sister, daughter want us to tell the world their names, stories. Perhaps you, not HLLN, helped raise some of the monies for funerals Father Jean Juste was asked to officiate at but could not pay the funeral home for, of dead, unarmed demonstrators whose corpse would have rotted at the morgue as their families could not pay for their funerals themselves. Perhaps, you have visited the Haitian refugees who were in Jamaica, the ones in the Bahamas, help them contact their families in Haiti and abroad to know that they didn't drown and are in need of help. Perhaps there was someone else in this world who first wrote about So Ann's arrest, how the U.S. Marines blindfolded and shackled her 5-year old grandson; perhaps it wasn't HLLN who FIRST reported on the May 18, 2004, May 18, 2005 massacres......The Congressional briefings we've been called to present on, the radio interviews, the presentations we make speaking-truth-to-power about what's hidden behind the headlin
es.

Perhaps, jmflorestal, you really don't know what HLLN does. The voice we give to the indefinitely incarcerated, the internal refugees in Haiti, the suffering mothers of Site Soley, Bel Air...the messages we've transmitted on their behalf to the world and to the world press....perhaps, perhaps. Or perhaps, this is just baiting, pretense intended to summarily discount our work. In which case there's nothing further to be said.

But if you really are not into talk but sincerely about seeing that justice is done, I invite you to get a clue before you write:[quote]In fact, your efforts in using his name are kind of late, since so many people preceded you and tried harder. [/quote], or

[quote]Dr. King and Mahatma Gandhi were doing more than just talking, and so did Father Jean-Juste as I mentioned above.[/quote]

For, I seem to remember being personally accused, by the coup d'etat people and their sympathizers, of "bringing Operation Ba
ghdad" to Miami for sending out the very first press release about the first arrest of father Gerard Jean Juste.

Perhaps it's because we do "more than just talk" that we are so attacked and vilified? Perhaps.

I could go on and on and on, and give you links and prove our efforts are unmatched. But then again, there's a post above that already does that. Click on some of links to what we DO besides "talk". No disrespect intended, but pretense doesn't help the suffering people of Haiti, nor does willful ignorance.

If you really don't know, I invite you again Jmflorestal, to try clicking on some of the links referred to above if you'd like to talk about the WORK that is being done. It's a lot of work, so you might have to spend some time. But it is very public work that defends the right of Haitians to self-govern. True dialogue and exchanges must be based on factual points of references, not innuendos about "careers," and untruth of [quote] "..your efforts in using his name
are kind of late"[/quote] otherwise this exchange is fairly futile and circuitous.

Respect,

Ezili Danto

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Post by admin » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:21 pm

What Ezili Danto described above are just a few highlights of her political action over the last two years. Pound for pound, I know of no greater "fanm vanyan". I think that Jean-Marie would agree too, had he been better informed.

Of course, this is not meant to suggest that there is no room for disagreement over her points of view. However, the sister does much more than venting. If I did one-fifth as much as she does, I would be exhausted. In fact, I feel tired just thinking about it.

No wonder the de facto insiders portray her in the most unflattering terms. She gets under their skin.

I am just grateful she does not call me to task for my apparent inactivity, 'cause the fact is, I just could not be like her. Even if I tried. But we each do, as we were called to do, and hopefully we will reach a level of complementarity that will be most beneficial to those for whom we care the most.

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:19 am

Yes, indeed, Guy. Ezili DantO se reyelman on fanm vanyan.
Chapo ba, manman!

Myself, for some selfish reasons, I never could find the time and courage to help my people back home... It is a shame!

But again, good job Ezili.

L'union fait la Force,
leonel

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:03 am

Through the discussions in that thread, I became more aware of the work HLLN or Ezili Danto or both are doing. I don't know exactly what they are trying to do, other than the fact that it appears primarily political. But, anytime someone is doing something that may contribute to REAL improvement of the lives of the millions of haitians languishing in poverty and misery in Haiti, it is worth paying attention. Since they are willing to do the work, I wish somehow the fruits of their labor can some day benefit the average haitian in that form and not just a few as is customary in our country.

Our discussions here degenerated into my questioning their work. It is unfortunate, for my intervention in this thread was primarily an intended call for pragmatism, as I agree with a lot of their lofty goals but disagree with some of the means to achieve them. I will give them the benefits of the doubt. In the end, the
final arbiter will be RESULTS. I am watching.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:56 am

Jaf,

I will take time to answer you instead of rushing into it. I am learning my lessons. But, there are some easy answers I can give you meanwhile before entering into the gist of your post.

[quote]Jmflorestal, thank you for your post above. Yes, you are right. Father Jean Juste is exceptional.[/quote]

[quote]...Yet, in the same breath you pay homage to Ghandi and Martin Luther King...and with a little outside encouragement also to Father Jean-Juste.[/quote]

Jaf,

Is it where you disagree with Ezili Danto? Take your pick!

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:22 pm

[quote]The fundamental problem we face as a people is lack of confidence in our own people, our own collective strength and wisdom and our own sheroes and heroes who have always been, are and will always be achieving against incredible odds that which foreign "fake" saviours have never, and have no incentive or obligation to do for us. [/quote]

Jaf,

From what I understand, trust and confidence are something earned. Usually, name calling and finger pointing tend to have the opposite effect on them.

Confidence is earned through a record of success. If the record shows a high degree for failure, you will not earn a lot of confidence and trust. You cannot force confidence or trust. It comes naturally. You can force obedience, like a dictator does. But it is not trust, it is rather fear.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:38 pm

[quote]But, I can bet you anything, if we check the archives, we will find that when Jean-Juste was indeed "doing" the work, you were not so keen to applaud him.[/quote]

I have never been a cheerleader in my life. I am sorry if I never acquired their skills.

[quote]In essence the impression I get, is that you are only supportive of our own people's defenders when and if they obtain a sort of foreign seal of approval.[/quote]

Jaf,
I suspect you have that same impression of everybody with whom you have a disagreement. Jaf, some of the things we disagree on are not the substantive ones, such as: freedom, equality, merits, etc. The disagreements I have with you most of the times are about how you treat people who disagree with you. When someone has the littlest disagreement with you, regardless of whether that disagreement is in form or process, you call names and poi
nt fingers. I hope you remember that you don't have a monopoly of the truth.

[quote] Jean-Marie, we have also seen how you and a few others have no trouble declaring the Haitian Constitution dead…..[/quote]
Jaf,

All I can say: keep your belief and I will keep mine.

[quote] ….or to suggest that, in the name of pragmatism, Haitians get with the program and let the "Tarzan" klan save us how they see best fit (of course I am caricaturing here!). [/quote]

Here we go again with the name calling! I am neither a fan nor a detractor of Ezili Danto and her group. My best guess is that they are paid lobbyists, and I may be wrong in that too. At least when having a discussion with her, she tries to inform. You may learn something from her tactics.

As far as pragmatism is concerned, it is often a virtue that reflects knowledge acquired through experience or observation. When it is lacking, one becomes a wishful thinker. Pragmati
sm suggests you work through the system to change it or undermine it. As long as you stay outside of the system, lack of pragmatism has taught us that what you can make most of the times is a lot of noise while achieving nothing. There are some rare cases of success and they still require insiders at a lower level working for you inside.

[quote]People like Marguerite Laurent doing the work that she does deserve the encouragement and active support of Haitians who share her vision which is that of a sovereign and thriving Haitian people. [/quote]

I am happy for you that you share her vision. As far as “the sovereign and thriving part,“ I believe, and you can correct me if I am wrong, Haitians were somehow sovereign – as I suppose you define it – when President Aristide was in power in Haiti. But yet, I did not see how the people were thriving while most of them had no human basic needs, no food to eat, no clean water, no decent healthcare system, and no education.
, just to name a few. Some politicians were thriving, not the average Haitian.

The real problem with you is that people do not learn when they are having a discussion with you. The reason is that when they disagree with you, “ou tonbe joure yo.” Go figure! In the process, you force people to answer your names calling instead of learning something from you that they don't know. That is not leadership.

Kounye a ke mwen finn reponn tout jouman w yo, ban m diskite kesyon ke mwen te genyen pou Ezili Danto a. That is, after all this exchange, Ezili Danto and HLLN's alternative to the elections is not an alternative because it is unrealistic. That is why it sounds more like advocacy and lobbying. The reason is that it does not take into account the ability to implement it. I would be happy you can prove me wrong.

Now going back again to another substantive part of the discussion, what matters to me is RESULTS. The only RESULT that matter
s in Haiti is alleviating the suffering of the average Haitian and later ensuring that he/she does not have to live in the conditions he/she is now. Perhaps I am blind, but I did not see that in the list of accomplishments of Ezili Danto and HLLN. The work with other politicians or some of their activists is a personal choice that rewards mostly personal political ambitions which does not impress me, even though I was not aware of it.

Jaf, perhpas you misunderstood the part I thought was unfortunate in my post. It is only the "lack of action", without passing judgement on the quality of that action. That is the subject of another discussion, which for now I have no interest in having.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:05 pm

Padel,

Brother, here is my full quote:

[quote][quote]
….or to suggest that, in the name of pragmatism, Haitians get with the program and let the "Tarzan" klan save us how they see best fit (of course I am caricaturing here!).[/quote]

Here we go again with the name calling! I am neither a fan nor a detractor of Ezili Danto and her group. My best guess is that they are paid lobbyists, and I may be wrong in that too. At least when having a discussion with her, she tries to inform. You may learn something from her tactics.[/quote]

[quote]But somehow I am confused as hell by this paragraph of yours:

You said to Jaf : "Here we go again with the name calling! I am neither a fan nor a detractor of Ezili Danto and her group"
[/quote]

The name calling refers to the "Tarzan" Klan metaphor of Jaf.


Also, there is an exclamation mark after "calling." The next sentence is part of the idea developed in the three phrases that follow it. I made a statement that somehow I am not a fanatic of Ezili Danto, like one is of a star or a politician, etc. At the same time, I am not someone who hates her. I don't know her. She has not done anything to me to have a particular emotional reaction to her. To me, she is just like the next attorney at the corner of a downtown street.

Padel, I have to go now. I will answer the rest of your questions later.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Sat Nov 19, 2005 7:34 pm

[quote]But what do you mean by:

"My best guess is that they are paid lobbyists, and I may be wrong in that too."

Isn't that "name calling"? In my mind, suggesting that Danto and her group may be "paid lobbyists' is exactly "name calling". And you know what? The damage is done. It's late saying that "I may be wrong in that too''. Isn't it?[/quote]

Paid lobbyists are often lawyers, such as Ira Kurzban for example - I understand he is also a personal attorney - and their job is to defend a client, promote or propagate ideas that can be converted to legislation in favor of the client, among other things. Because it is a work for them, they go at it with a lot of enthusiasm and professionalism. Please note that as far as I am concerned there is nothing wrong with being a paid lobbyist. Asking whether someone is a paid lobbyist is just research. It is not name calling like you have an example ab
ove. There are good reasons to ask whether the work done by HLLN or Ezili Danto involved lobbying. They are attorneys and invest a lot of time in it based on what she outlined above in a post. While the reward for doing that may just be patriotism, it may also be lobbying or just political ambitions. I wish I knew the answer which is why I asked.

Now, Padel, you assume that my statement on the paid lobbyist is one I will apologize for. You prejudged me on that. I make mistakes sometimes in my posts because I write outside of my home when I don't have the time to research something before making a statement and rush the post by relying on my memory only. I am learning a bitter lesson in that. But, I don't send trial balloons and withdraw them later. It is difficult for me to make apologies. At the same time, I believe in fairness and ethics. When I rush to judgement, I believe I have a duty to come clean. It involves risk, such as providing opportunities to others to take advantage of them. But, that
does not dissuade me since I am comfortable with myself. And, I challenge others on the forum to come clean when they are wrong, as it is a mark of strength and responsibility when people can acknowledge their mistakes.

[quote]You said:
"At least when having a discussion with her, she tries to inform. You may learn something from her tactics."

Again, I am confused. What do you mean by "tactics" ? Based on what I read, Danto has laid her facts and her response was direct. [/quote]

Her tactics when involved in an argument, based on the discussion above, is to try to inform, clarify her position and provide evidence to support it.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:23 am

[quote]You said :
"Asking whether someone is a paid lobbyist is just research."

Correct, there is nothing wrong for asking but there is a world of difference when you stated:

"My best guess is that they are paid lobbyists, and I may be wrong in that too."

Here, you implied a belief on your part. You were not asking for information. To soften my affirmation , may I add "I may be wrong in that too". See what I mean? [/quote]

Unfortunately, Padel, that's the complexity of politics and the motives of people involved in it. To fully understand the motives of someone involved in politics, you have to make inferences based on actions they made and not what they tell you. I made mine, and I don't change it unless I obtain contrary evidence in the future. The research part is obtaining contrary evidence. If none of them get no compensation whatsoever for the work they want to take credit for,
they can always send someone in the name of them all and make that claim.

Padel, like everyone else in this forum, you have a right to ask clarification when I make a statement. I am not offended by that. When I am wrong and someone proves me I am, I learn from it. That's the overwhelming motivation for getting involved in those discussions in the first place.

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Post by admin » Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:06 pm

[quote]It is difficult for me to make apologies. At the same time, I believe in fairness and ethics. When I rush to judgement, I believe I have a duty to come clean. It involves risk, such as providing opportunities to others to take advantage of them. But, that does not dissuade me since I am comfortable with myself. And, I challenge others on the forum to come clean when they are wrong, as it is a mark of strength and responsibility when people can acknowledge their mistakes. [/quote]
While it is not clear to me that this thread has seen the application of the above stated principle, I have to thank Jean-Marie for formulating it. As a code of behavior among forum participants, it deserves Windows on Haiti's full endorsement.

I also want to take this occasion to publicly thank Marguerite Laurent for her tireless lobbying on behalf of Haitian Rights, particularly:

a) the end of the de facto
foreign occupation of Haiti

b) the release of Yvon Neptune, Jocelyn Privert, Annette Auguste, and Father Gérard Jean-Juste

c) the release of all other political prisoners

d) a more humane treatment of U.S. deportees in Haiti

e) an end to the brutal and systematic repression of Lavalas sympathizers, who reside in Haiti's poorest bidonvilles (symbolized by Cité Soleil, because it is the largest and has known the greatest amount of unrest due to gang warfare, suppression of civil liberties, indiscriminate shootings by agents of law and order such as the Haitian National Police and various contingents of the United Nations' policing force)

f) the quick release of information about human rights calamities, such as the Martissant soccer game massacre, perpetrated in broad daylight by HNP agents, at an event promoted and funded by the United States Agency for International Development (USAID). Given the general and scandalous indifference of the Haitian Press with respect to pur
suing press inquiries and investigations into serious instances of human rights violations occurring since the coup d'etat. With the automatic and unsubstantiated cries that all human rights violations may be put at the door of the exiled president and his supporters, many such violations would likely have gone unnoticed if it weren't for HLLN's large-scale distribution of up to the minute news bulletins and lobbying activities.

Haiti is a deeply polarized society. Whenever someone says anything or does anything, the first question that is raised is whether that person has allegiance to Aristide, Lavalas, Convergence, GNB, Andy Apaid, Charles Baker, or whatever and whomever. The merits of what you stand for are always judged secondary to those real or imagined allegiances. There seemingly is no room for independent journalists, independent workers' unions, independent human rights workers, and independent thinkers. That is one fatal flaw of Haitian society, that is sh
ared across board and that generates dissension, disunity, disloyalty, and a crippling inability to unite for the common good. From my personal experience, I have concluded that a substantial sector of our community of Haitians are curiously but irremediably unable to transcend that condition and shift to a new paragdim.

HLLN may be a victim of such mentality, simply because it has aligned itself with the defense of Haiti's constitutional government, headed by the controversial Jean-Bertrand Aristide. I happen to believe however, that regardless of anyone's sympathy or opposition to Jean-Bertrand Aristide's Lavalas government, human rights concerns should transcend such sentiments. The poor in Haiti have suffered in unnecessary measure since we acquired our independence in 1803, but never more so than during periods of coups d'etat in the last 20 years. There was a time of great hope for the poor, incarnated in the Lavalas movement but it was crushed unmercilessly by opposing interests. And so
goes their history. That is why I have chosen to transcend our profound political differences and applaud the work on behalf of human rights of all entities and personalities, regardless of politics: HLLN, Batay Ouvriye, PAPDA, Father Jean-Juste, Jafrikayiti, etc. They may choose to fight between themselves, if they are so inclined, but I believe in promoting what unites us over what divides us, for the clearing of common ground upon which we can build indigenous institutions of democracy that will be more responsive to our people's needs than the self-imposed gifts of western democracy.

What started this thread was HLLN's stand on the sham elections. A lot has been written on this topic of elections all year long, and it is still confusing. I want to conclude however on a related but diffent subject, and that is my gratitude to Marguerite Laurent for her personal and tireless advocacy of human rights in Haiti. She may sound political. She may sound combative. [*] But at the end of the day, she
has let her voice be heard at a time when many have chosen to be silent

For that and all of the other reasons I previously cited, I commend her.

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:36 am

Post this very eloquent and truthful post from our Beloved Guy, I really have nothing else to say, except that I want to emphasize on Ezili or Marguerite Laurent's actions on behalf of Haitian causes.

This is someone who could have made so much money if she chose to align herself with the status quo. Someone who puts herself in danger by exposing the injustices in Haiti. Someone who is working pro bono on behalf of the people of Cite Soley or Belair... Puting herself in harm way against the De Facto, GNBs, Drug Dealers etc etc. What else does she need to do to prove her goodwill??? Help me on that one, anyone!

We need to recognize when someone is true blue. When someone is not for his or her self interests or achievements. Like I said before, if she wanted to have more profits or recognition, she chose the wrong side.

That does not mean she won't change! Cause as human, we change for reasons beyond our control. That has h
appened to a lot of people.

But, presently, we have to give credits where credit is due. Personally, I believe she is exceptional!

Ezili DantO, you have my full support. You've done an amazingly good job. You don't have to prove anything, for, working for the poor is more challenging than supporting the Defakto ak GNB.

L'union fait la Force,
leonel

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:04 pm

[quote]Haiti is a deeply polarized society. Whenever someone says anything or does anything, the first question that is raised is whether that person has allegiance to Aristide, Lavalas, Convergence, GNB, Andy Apaid, Charles Baker, or whatever and whomever. The merits of what you stand for are always judged secondary to those real or imagined allegiances. There seemingly is no room for independent journalists, independent workers' unions, independent human rights workers, and independent thinkers. That is one fatal flaw of Haitian society, that is shared across board and that generates dissension, disunity, disloyalty, and a crippling inability to unite for the common good. From my personal experience, I have concluded that a substantial sector of our community of Haitians are curiously but irremediably unable to transcend that condition and shift to a new paragdim. [/quote]

I totally disagree with the id
ea in that paragraph because it generalizes. I also abhor that practice of boxing people in a political camp or other. But, I cannot generalize it as I am in no particular camp myself. I am a Haitian who is tired of seeing the country moving backward. I don't care who is president and what party is in power. I just want the suffering of the average Haitian to end and for the country to stop the backward sliding move, and to take a different direction. It is one thing for people to have strong views about a political movement and want to take an active role in it. It is another to point finger at those who do not choose the activist role and accuse them of being accomplices. In so doing, those people open themselves to questions of their motives.

I believe my question was a fair one, when statements like that are made:
[quote]But, it is a hard reality also, that there are far too many, ostensibly very "educated" Haitians, at home and abroad, who seem to willingly be closing both eyes
while extending both arms and legs for the shackles to be put on. Falsely believing their willingness to "be good," "moderates" and cooperative, to be "less-than;" willingness not to fight the occupation and their rigged elections, willingness to, in essence, deny their own unalienable rights, this, they seem to say, is an acceptable ALTERNATIVE because what? It means not making the tyrants more insane! It means, they do nothing and let things role on, AS IS, without rocking the boat to make things WORSE!
(Ezili Danto) [/quote]

We all have reasons to take a proactive stance in matters that are of concern to us. Because one decides to act does not mean that those who do not take an active role abdicate their own rights or sympathize with a status quo. Unlike popular Haitian belief, leadership should be a privilege for the brightest. Those, who feel they are the brightest, seek leadership position by taking pro-active roles in desired movements. By not taking a leadership role, one
does not endorse the status quo.

In the present situation in Haiti, there is no pleasant alternative. The past is as undesirable as the present. Both are bad. The past yielded no results. The present is less ominous with the mortgage taken on the country. With such choice, it is hard to understand enthusiasm and devotion for any camp. While I respect others' choices, even if I offer my perception of their impact on me and others, I ask they respect mine as they don't have a monopoly of the truth.

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