...but for the appalling silence of the good people!

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...but for the appalling silence of the good people!

Post by admin » Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:17 am

[quote]But Dr. King is our guide: "in this generation we shall repent not only for the hateful words and actions of the 'bad people' but for the appalling silence of the 'good people'.

Jafrikayiti
'Baboukèt la tonbe, li tonbe nèt !'[/quote]

As I posted in the World section today, a credible study shows that almost 25,000 Iraqis have met violent deaths in the past 2 years, many more than Saddan Hussein would have killed if he were still in power.

What does this mean? Saddam Hussein was a terrible man. But History, even if written by white men, will show that President George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Tony Blair were even worse than Saddam Hussein.

And by supporting the current government of the United States and Britain, who can deny their own part of responsibility in the most
foolish military adventure of the 21st century this far?

One day before the London bombings, which were carried out by young British citizens, the United Nations police force entered Haiti's Cité Soleil with the intention of capturing/silencing the "resister du jour with the funny name" (adiós Kolobri, Labanyè, Grenn Sonnen, Ravix, Metayer, etc, etc...). They met with some resistance (was that unexpected?) and they returned "head shots", killing an indeterminate number of women and children. KILLING WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN CITÉ SOLEIL! That's what MINUSTAH has been reduced to? Is that the spirit which drives the United Nations? But in the end, they got their man, Dread Wilmé, and all of those women and children with their heads blown apart were consequently "mere collateral damage".

All of this to secure undemocratic elections devised to legitimize once and for all the 2004 coup d'état???

And then Jacques Roche. Was he G-184? Was he Lavalas? Who the
hell cares, in his death! Wasn't he first and foremost a compassionate human being, a Haitian patriot who courageously followed the dictates of his conscience to improve the lot of those around him?

And now Father Jean-Juste who feeds the poor of his parish and demands the return of the "all-powerful" Jean-Bertrand Aristide (the man who supposedly commands and unleashes the forces of hell from any corner of the globe, and can fool all of the world's intelligence agencies combined, even when he uses "his own voice" according to the venerable Roger Norriega!!) . This Jean-Juste is now accused of being a "terrorist", of financing arms purchases and smuggling them into Cité Soleil, which is encircled by MINUSTAH, the police force of the United Nations, which knows how to take head shots at Haitian children. And now, we're supposed to be silent while an investigation is under way to reveal how Jean-Bertrand Aristide and Father Jean-Juste have managed to dig an underseas tunnel from South Africa all the
way to Cité Soleil to funnel arms and ammunitions, undetected from the heavens' most powerful satellites and from CIVPOL, MINUSTAH, FBI, CIA, and other alphabet soup organizations of the world's most intrusive intelligence agencies. (Sanble nèg sa yo pa konn naje anba dlo pou opsève aktivite anba lanmè a!)

But we're supposed to stay silent and try to stay safe in our little jail cells, which we have helped to construct ourselves! Because they are investigating Father Jean-Juste and his tunnel funneling capabilities, we are not supposed to contact him and even say hello? And if they manage to kill him, for being a "Lavalas Terrorist", we are supposed to keep our distance too, for not being tainted with whatever they choose to designate as terrorism?

While at once we say "Hail to the Chief" to the killers of 25,000 Iraqi civilians and those who kill the women and children of Cité Soleil!

That is good citizenship, n'est-ce pas?


[quote]I hope that you didn't reveal your intent to send your contribution to support the struggle. Did you? [/quote]
Michel, from what Leonel wrote on this subject, how did you deduce "(his) intent to send (his) contribution to support the struggle" ???

And exactly what is "the struggle" ?


Guy S. Antoine

Site Solèy pa La Siri ! Esplike m pou ki sa... A la ti peyi gen ipokrit papa!

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Post by admin » Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:26 pm

[quote]The kids in the streets of Haiti called Chimeres are no different from the Muslim kids in the streets of downtown London or those from Palestine. Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries have been sponsoring and financing a lot of mosques, and non-profit organizations all over the world to spread around the Muslim faith. We Haitians in the Diaspora, we have been doing the same thing, collecting and sending money to our brothers and sisters through churches, and non-profit organizations.[/quote]
??? (Sorry, I do not quite understand the point you are making here. The Haitian diaspora is like Saudi Arabia?? Haitian kids are driven by some sort of religious ideology??)

[quote]I am not pointing fingers at Pere Jean Juste, I am just follow up on your analogy.[/quote]
Well, you followed up on an analogy I did not make, at least not from my own perception. It would be interesting
to find out whether others perceived my reference to the London incident in the manner that you did. I mentioned the young British suicide bombers only to illustrate that violence often comes from sources we least expect or that we usually place above suspicion.

[quote]Feeding the poor and demanding a political request is more likely damaging his image. This is a perfect alibi for the others to “po[z]e la pat sou li, e ma[n]de'l de ki previyen”.[/quote]
Is this all the justification they need, Michel?

[quote]Ou bien wap bay pov manje, ou bien wap fe politik. This is double dipping! And Pere Jean Juste can't have his cake and eat it too.[/quote]
They said the same thing about Dr. King when he denounced the Vietnam War! "That is double dipping!! Once cannot demand equal rights at home and advocate for peace in the world at the same time!" We need public figures to be perfectly one-dimensio
nal, like comic book heroes. Anything more is confusing and totally unacceptable, n'est-ce pas?

[quote]It's fair to feed these kids, and teach them to be self sufficient, to love their country and their fellow citizens. But it's counter productive to indoctrinating and telling these poor kids the Blan, Haitian elite and their associates are the causes of their misery.[/quote]
Let's be clear. Are you accusing Jean-Juste of doing that, Michel?

[quote]Feeding their brain with hatred and vengeance would be like cloned or resuscitated Dread Wilme over and over again[/quote]
Again, since we are not talking in a vacuum here, is this what you accuse Jean-Juste of doing?

[quote]What solutions do YOU have to help these unfortunate kids called chimeres not to become another “Dread Wilme” or other 19 years-old suicide bombers?[/quote]
It all begins with self-determination... There is no [b:dc1420
409f]viable foreign imposed solution, in my estimation. As for the constant references to suicide bombers and terrorist youths, it's infinitely regrettable that you keep feeding us that sort of assimilation which automatically excuses the worst excesses of American power in the world today.

[quote]Don't tell me that it's to get rid off the elite and their associates.[/quote]
That's your (counter) suggestion, not my characterization!! When and where have you ever seen me advocating getting rid of any group of human beings?

[quote]It's easy to say, and that's not going to happen![/quote]
Certainly not as easy as getting rid of the youth of Cité Soleil, let's say. They already have the label "terrorist" attached to them. [Take any two people, call one "a terrorist", and call the other "a friend of the Republican Party", pull out your actuarial tables, and calculate which one has a greater life expecta
ncy.]

[quote]Because they [elite e latrye] are constant elements in this equation of Haitian society, they wouldn't change that easy to go down and reach the masses! They will tend their hands to pull them up the ladder, true. But…[/quote]
You lost me...

[quote]Pou sa rive tout bon vre, fok pep la konnin ke shen gwangou pa mode min met li ki bal manje.[/quote]
[Pou sa rive tout bon vre, fok pep la konnen chen ki grangou pa mode men met ki ba li manje.]
Michel, it is distressing to see you feeding a second stereotype, in addition to the "terrorist" propaganda: that of the Haitian people which should learn to be docile and accept the crumbs offered by its benevolent masters. It appears that you are advocating the following: Rather than being an ungrateful dog, we should behave more like the faithful donkeys who carry loads to the
market everyday, and are given some latitude to graze in some designated sparse fields once in a while, enough to stay alive for another day and another load.


Well, this note is taking longer than I intended, so let me speed up to the end of your reply.

[quote]Like it or not, they will give us a turn-key system of government.[/quote]
So, whose government will that be, Michel?? Yours, mine or theirs?

Sounds like the perfect recipe for disaster to me. Not unlike the "flowers and music" promised by Dick Cheney to invading U.S. troops and the reality of 25,000 Iraqi casualties in the past two years and counting!

[quote]Ou government fet e founi !! [/quote]

A fool's paradise!

Guy

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Post by Jonas » Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:18 am

NEW WORLD ORDER?

Go tell it to the Bolivians, the Ecuadorians, the Uruguayans,
the Argentinians.

I guess, they have forgotten to tell them so!

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Post by Jonas » Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:58 pm

Michel,

I am an idealist realist.
Using these words together, I agree is oxymoronic; but this is to say that I look at these problems with eyes wide open, without illusions.

Everything is relative Michel; you mentioned "The New World Order" as an "ends all".
Is the Pahlevi family still in power in Iran?
When this family was overthrown, I believe the shah commanded one of the ten most powerful armies in the world.
Last time I looked there is no more Soviet Union.

And in my previous post, I mentioned Bolivia.
This is a country which had more military coups than our beloved Haiti; it's hard to believe, isn't it?

The poor people of Bolivia are imposing their will on the elites of that country.
It is almost dangerous these days to be a person of European descent in Bolivia.
The leading politician is of Indian descent. His name is EVO MORALES and he is almost assured of being elected president in the
next election.
Don't mention the "New world Order", structural adjustments and alphabet soups like IMF, IDB etc to the Bolivians.

The people of Bolivia are not smarter than the people of Haiti, I am sure of that.
The people of Haiti have no choice but to keep up the struggle.
The Haitian elites can be defeated, and those are the thoughts of an idealist realist.

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Post by Jonas » Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:38 am

The racial component of the elites in Latin America, compared to Haiti, is incidental.

Do you think there is a dime of difference between people like Manigat, Deronceray, Latortue and people like Apaid, Baker, Boulos?

These people aforementioned felt equally threatened by Aristide and what he represented.

And Michel, I know about Latin American History, so don't assume.

Incidentally, I was born in Pétionville like you, like my father, my mother, my grand fathers and grand mothers.

They were all baptized at St Peter's Church.

My father born in 1904, went to the F.I.C. At that time the school was at "Rue Grégoire", at the old "Estève Mansion".

And also, I am not ideological. I subscribe to the theory of Deng Xiao Ping. When he was asked if he was a socialist or capitalist; he answered that it didn't matter what the color of the CAT was, what mattered was whether it were able to catch rats!

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Post by admin » Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:39 pm

Jonas, I am glad to see that you are back with us on Ann Pale. Sometimes, you disappear for long stretches of time and we are left to wonder whether you will ever come back. Personally, I have always enjoyed your historically savvy commentary, which dates back to the earlier forms of the Windows on Haiti forum (when it wasn't yet "Ann Pale").

Central to this discussion is not a phony distinction between ideology and reality, as though ideologies were not driven by reality and realities were not affected by ideology. At issue here is whether Father Jean-Juste's insistence that Jean-Bertrand Aristide be returned to resume his constitutional mandate as President of Haiti automatically strips him of all civic rights that any Haitian citizen should be able to take for granted when walking Haitian land, the grounds of which were paid for with the blood and suffering of millions of Africans, transplanted in Ameri
ca by greedy European bastards who evolved an ideology of racism to justify their criminal undertaking. At issue here is whether a priest, who is loyal to President Aristide, can attend a funeral of a distinguished citizen, without sustaining an attack by an unruly mob of blood-thirsty Aristide opponents and getting arrested and incarcerated in the National Penitentiary on completely facetious grounds and without any of the protection that the de facto Latortue government has seen fit to grant the worst criminals Haiti has seen since the ghouls of François Papa Doc Duvalier.

Father Jean-Juste may seem an irrealist when he calls for JBA's return. In today's Haiti, such a call is considered a mortal sin, an act of irresponsibility punishable by death without a trial. And we are supposed to accept this in the name of realism?

Let us explore the virtues of this vaunted realism. Let's take a closer look. Michel leads the way:

[quote]Nou we ke Reality se ou pep ki grangou! ki m
alad!
ki bezouyin [bezwen] edukasyion [edikasyon]! ki bezouyin [bezwen] kote pou'l domi!
ki bezouyin [bezwen] sekirite e travay!
ki bezouyin [bezwen] bon lider [lidè] e bon gouvenance [gouvènans]!

Tout Realite [Reyalite] sa yo la kale 2 grin [grenn] je devan nou 24 sou 24.

Reality is knocking, and we better wake up!!

Tandis ke Morality se van ak bel pawol mete la!
Ethics, principles, decency, honesty, integrity e morality
se bel pawol pou fe moun domi kanpe, pou fe moun bekeke. [/quote]

According to Michel, Reality not only wins over Ideology, but it also makes mince meat of Morality.

But isn't this the neo-conservative Bushist ideology of the past few years, that translated into the grand Foley-Latortue experiment of governance in Haiti that has not succeeded in making one happy person in all of Haiti? "Reality" bites.

Let's yield the space to another realist, a correspondent that I will paraphrase:


[quote]I am convinced that U.S. and French agents would kill him * dead, dead, dead * before he'd ever get a chance to get off the plane in Haiti. I believe that the plane that he'd embarked from South Africa would suffer a mysterious engine malfunction that would kill everyone on board, including all women and children indiscriminately, before it would be allowed to land at the Toussaint Louverture Airport. I understand that the hordes of Haitian criminals that roam the streets of Haiti would not even be trusted to carry this ultimate act of political assassination. I understand Father Jean-Juste's call on constitutional grounds, but it would translate to certain death for Jean-Bertrand Aristide.[/quote]

"Reality" bites. But where are the dividends for those who espouse it? Does it mean millions of dollars more for a few while Haiti burns? Perhaps...but where is the happiness for an elite that is consumed with raging hatred towards anything reminiscent of a
certain brand of populism, and the compulsive fear of a broad application of "one-man one-vote" in upcoming elections, however fixed they may have been already.

Reality vs. Ideology? Reality vs. Morality? Given the utter lack of evidence of any happy results for either the elites or the masses of Haiti, I would gladly settle for an ideology that promotes morality in the Haitian reality.

I see no contradiction of terms here. Only fools keep clamoring for a reality that is devoid of morality.

One only has to take one look at Haiti today to sense that the Bush-Noriega-Foley-Abraham-Alexandre-Latortue experiment has faltered badly. And that too is reality.

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Post by Jonas » Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:46 pm

[quote]One only has to take one look at Haiti to sense that the Bush-Noriega-Foley-Abraham-Latortue experiment has faltered badly.And that too is reality [/quote]

Indeed Guy.
I don't know if the American policy makers realize yet that they have bet on the wrong horse by putting their chips on the Haitian elites.
How are they going to win that one?
The ground has shifted on them.
How are they going to implement their structural adjustment programs, with emphasis in cutting social programs on a people which is already starving?
I heard that about 500 milion dollars had already been spent (on the 1.4 billion promised).
What do they have to show for it?

Speaking about Father Jean Juste, it is just obscene the way they are trying to railroad him.
There is no more pretense. Now it's "la clameur publique", whatever that means.

Guy,
I had mentioned ideology, because Michel alluded to
it.
Anybody who objects to what's happening actually in Haiti, is an ideologue, a leftist one at that.

In my book, what's wrong with Haiti is its elites.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Sun Jul 24, 2005 8:32 am

[quote]Haitian reality is such in a survival state that it should exempt its population from moral behavior. Everything they do should be comprehensible and excusable.
[/quote]
Michel, this is ridiculous! I have been trying to stay away from that discussion, but what you just said is so off the marks that I have to point out the level of folly in expressing it. If it is the way the elite of Haiti thinks, the situation is worse than I ever dreamed of. And, some of you thought I was so pessimistic about it!

To live any meaningful life and be successful at it, you must live by principles. If one follows Michel's arguments, a teenager may kill both his parents. Since the parents were his only source of livelihood, he would fall into such a state of misery, both economically and emotionally, that in order to survive, society should comprehend a
nd excuse all the stealing that he does to live, all the killings that he does in order to procure what he steals, and all the other crimes that he commits to entertain himself just because he is an orphan [which by the way he caused himself].

To continue following Michel's arguments, it does not matter that the victims of his crimes are deprived of their hard earned properties, their God-given civil rights, and perhaps their God-given lives. The reason these things do not matter is because the teenager is in such a state of survival. Meanwhile, his victims' state of happiness does not matter and becomes subordinate to that of the teenager. Don't his victims also have a right to the pursuit of happiness, as well? This is the same type of rationale that led to the kidnapping of former President Aristide whereby the elite's interest is the only one that matters and it is Ok to kill a democracy to satisfy the elite's fancy. As long as the elite harbors this kind of reasoning, without being principle
d about its actions, it does not matter what you do in Haiti. Even if you infuse billions and billions of dollars in the country, it will never work. "Se lave men siye atè." It makes me wonder about the excuse of the powerful countries not to bother with real investment in the country.

By the way, from what I can remember, the rich countries have been making promises of aid and loans, but almost always they never materialized. I am referring to those after Clinton returned Aristide and those promised during Latortue's administration. So don't repeat those $500 million aid. They never made it to Haiti, unless you are referring to the money spent to maintain foreign troops on Haitians' soil.

Michel, I am assuming as an educated person in the U.S, you already read Stephen Covey's "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People." Whether you read it or not, I am inviting you to go and read it again, specially the first chapter, including the follow-up book, my favorite, "First Things First." He
re is a quote of the first chapter regarding the importance of having principles to guide a life, or what he called a principle-centered approach to life:"...the fundamental idea that there are principles that govern human effectiveness - natural laws in the human dimension that are just as real, just as unchanging and unarguably "there" as laws such as gravity are in the physical dimension." The idea is that there are certain guiding principles in life that you cannot avoid if you want to acheive anything meaningful in life. When you combine Covey's "unarguable" natural laws and Michel's perception of our elites, you would have to admit that our elite will never be effective. This is sad!

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:23 pm

[quote]Jean Marie allow me to modify your statement:
[quote]
As long as the elite and the masses harbors this kind of reasoning, without being principled about its actions, it does not matter what you do in Haiti. Even if you infuse billions and billions of dollars in the country, it will never work. "Se lave men syie atè."[/quote][/quote]

Michel, I don't think the modification is appropriate. The reason is that I don't know a country where the masses lead. Even when they claim it is the masses, what you really have is an elite group claiming to lead the country in the name of the masses, such has happened in China and other like countries.

In other countries, you have an elite group defending its interests as well as those of the masses. Perhaps, what is happening in Haiti is that he elite is not doing its job of leading the country, whic
h resulted in the current chaos we are in now.
Therefore, the elite should stop avoiding responsibility and accept it, or at least resolved not to make the same mistakes in the future. Until such time that the elite starts accepting responsibility for the conditions the country is in, it will be difficult to find progress being made.

When the elite wants to share responsibility with the masses, you have a leadership vaccum. Sharing responsibility with the masses does not make the elite look good. It is like saying: "It is mediocre, but at least I am not the only one mediocre." Harry Truman said: "The buck stops here." It is time the elite does the same. If the elite wants comparison, they should compare themselves with elites in other countries to measure their performance.

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Post by admin » Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:50 am

Who is the REAL Michel?

The one who wrote this essay AYITI AP CHECHE SOLISYON POU KORIPSYON [ http://www.haitiforever.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1989 ] on October 7 2004 ...

- OR -

the one who wrote the following:

[quote]Morality se van ak bel pawol mete la! Ethics, principles, decency, honesty, integrity e morality se bel pawol pou fe moun domi kanpe, pou fe moun bekeke.

Haitian reality is such in a survival state that it should exempt its population from moral behavior. Everything they do should be comprehensible and excusable.

Fok yo viv tou! Sa se biznis pa yo! Volo volo pa peshe! [/quote]

I would like to think that it is the former and that Michel just got temporarily trapped in a bad argument. From experience we know that when some people are caught making
a bad argument, they will spew idiocies before they would ever admit to being wrong.

So, Michel, here's your chance to tell us that you truly did not mean it and we will leave it at that. It is extremely important for you to denounce what you wrote above, because those statements could come back to haunt you.

First, they could ruin any real possibility of a political future for you in the U.S. Of all people, you should know how your powerful friends in Washington DC operate, people like Karl Rove for instance. People like Roger Noriega, Jesse Helms, Lee Atwater (never mind that one has retired and the other one is dead...their spirit unfortunately lives on). Michel, you have been swimming with the crocodiles, thinking that they could be your friends, but by making statements like this (perhaps just to provoke!) you are leaving your flank exposed, and I would not be surprised if those "false friends" were the first to tear into you. As you warn us so many times, "people are watching!" And what do they see now? They see you discounting a meaningful role for morality in your native country. Michel, Michel, that cannot possibly be the message you want to pass on to your friends and your foes alike.

Better for you to go back to your position of October 7 2004 [which was sensible even if the Creole spelling was not!] Michel saved by Michel! That would make an interesting script. Be a realist, Michel! The practice of corruption might get you somewhere in Washington. Preaching it will not.

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Post by admin » Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:45 am

[quote]Manigat, Deronceray and LaTortue are among the intellectuals, technocrates, tilititi djol pointi, voye monte bel franse nan gwo liv pou epate ti neg sot kap mache deye yo kou mouton. Des ideologists, des reveurs de pouvoir qui n'ont jamais rien foutu pour le people! [/quote]
Michel, if Latortue were not doing the bidding of the U.S. State Department exactly, how long would it take before James Foley paid him a courtesy call? I am not going to touch on your characterization of Manigat and Deronceray, as you may or may not be right about them. But your characterization of Gérard Latortue is not genuine. We are witnessing the most brutal repression of a populist movement in Haiti, made easy - by all sides - through the identification of the popular movement with the personality of Jean-Bertrand Aristide. Gérard Lator
tue speaks French very well, but he is not a "tilititi djol pointi" as you claim. Though he has a tendency to put his foot in his mouth on occasion, he is a rather able implementer of Washington's Haiti policy. That's the reason he was put there (Washington had ample time to think about this! They did not exactly stumble upon the man from Boca Raton). And that's the reason he is still their Prime Minister today.

Il se peut qu'il n'ait rien foutu pour le peuple haitien, comme tu dis, mais il recevra la médaille convoitée des mains de James Foley, ou qui sait, peut-être même de la belle Condi!

[quote]Apaid, Baker, and Boulos are successful entrepreneurs, businessmen, risk takers, visionary, jobs and wealth creators, and above all, Realist![/quote]
Are you merely forgetting, Michel, to add the words "local engineers of coups d'état" to your list of admirable qualities?

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:53 am

[quote]The acceptable corruption that I talked about is a corruption systematic and cultural. This is a corruption, which is in our society and culture. We have seen it so often that it became current and acceptable.[/quote]

Michel,

There is no such thing as an acceptable corruption! When a society reaches that point, it means that it is rotten! When it is rotten, you need to uproot the affected part to avoid widespread infection and grow a new behavior. Perhaps, you should try to reconsider those acceptable values, Michel, or take the olive branch handed to you by Guy.

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Post by admin » Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:07 am

[quote]Roch nan bèl dlo gin [gen] tan devan'an [devan l] poul reve e planifie [planifye] bèl bagay, paske yo pa konnin [konnen] doulè ak misè [mizè] roch nan solèy ap pase! Avan ke mwen te ou roch nan dlo, mwen te ou roch nan solèy la tou, ki donk se nan pa televisyion [televizyon] ke mwen wè doulè ti nèg! [/quote]
Sa fè, Michel Nau, ou te yon wòch nan solèy la tou! Se pa belag! Kidonk, se pa nan televizyon (tankou mwen menm san dout) ke ou wè doulè ti nèg. Ou viv doulè ti nèg menm!

Vwalatilpa, Michel, ke Windows on Haiti toujou ap chache temwanyaj moun ki viv doulè ti nèg, paske se tout Ayiti li ta renmen reprezante. Mwen eksite anpil lò mwen aprann ke yon gran patisipan nan fowòm Ann Pale a te "ou roch nan solèy la". Kidonk, Michel, pale nou de eksperyans ou kòm wòch anba solèy dayiti a.

Pou w soti nan doulè wòch e rive la nan yon pwen kote w ap sipèvize kont
ra ki vo plizyè milya dola nan Washington, mwen kwè fòk nou rasanble anba bouch ou pou nou koute bèl istwa sa. Amwenske ou deja pral fè yon liv parèt sou sa.

De tout fason, pa neglije pataje avèk frè ou sou fowòm lan, ki se nan televizyon sèlman yo wè doulè wòch nan solèy, ki jan ou menm ou te viv doulè wòch nan solèy la!

Mwen kwè se pi bèl bagay ou ta kab fè pou nou!

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:42 am

[quote][quote]
Apaid, Baker, and Boulos are successful entrepreneurs, businessmen, risk takers, visionary, jobs and wealth creators, and above all, Realist![/quote]

Are you merely forgetting, Michel, to add the words "local engineers of coups d'état" to your list of admirable qualities?[/quote]

Guy,

Again, I am not ready to hand Michel that one without more evidence. The biggest problem in Haiti is that we have been losing jobs forever and God knows how low the level of employment has dropped to. Under the watch of these guys, Haiti has lost more jobs than I can remember during my lifetime. The first thing you do when you are a wealth and job creator is to protect them. If that means negotiating, losing in the short term to winning in the long term to protect them, you do it. Instead, what we have seen these guys doing in the past 15 years is eliminati
ng jobs and wasting opportunities to create more wealth for themselves.

During their watch, we lost most of the assembly jobs to China, Mexico, Dominican Republic and Central America. During their watch, we saw whole agro-industry efforts evaporated, such as the rice, fruit exports, and other agro industry exports. During their watch, we saw Haiti losing all the tourism industry to the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, Mexico, the Bahamas, etc. Even the Haitians living in the diaspora refuse to go on vacation in Haiti anymore. During their watch, the GDP of Haiti shrank and continues to do so almost year after year.

Michel, the sad part is that these guys are acting against their own interests because they are putting their emotions before their reasons and they don't even to seem to know it. They spend more time on politics instead of cutting business deals, finding cheaper sources of supplies for their raw materials, increasing the markets for their products, cutting their costs and trying to do
better than their competitors.

It is time for them to stop trying to eliminate their competitors, but instead to outsmart them. It is time for them to understand that they have an interest in the stability of the country. And, if that means a little compromise, so be it. For, in the alternative they lose or shrink their source of wealth. They should have anticipated what happened in the country in the past 25 years that is hurting their businesses today. Anybody with a high school diploma could have anticipated that. Visionaries and responsible business leaders don't make that kind of mistakes. And, most over all, they need to stop spending money to get others to destroy their own countries. In the end, they have the most to lose because they are the ones who have.

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Post by admin » Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:17 pm

[quote]Ki donk Guy, Jean Marie ou pa bezouin [bezwen] dénigre mwen pou sa, se pa mwen ki di li.[/quote]
Michel, sanble ou pa konn sans mo "denigre" an. Si ou konn sans li, silvouplè montre m ekzateman ki sa mwen te di pou denigre w la. Si m tap denigre ou, kounyè a mwen ta va prezante ou eskiz mwen, paske mwen pa gen dwa fè sa. Men sepandan, mwen si e sèten ke ou konnen trè byen ke mwen pa te janm denigre ou. Sa pa anpeche m di ke mwen pa dakò ditou avèk ou lò w di:

[quote]Morality se van ak bel pawol mete la! Ethics, principles, decency, honesty, integrity e morality se bel pawol pou fe moun domi kanpe, pou fe moun bekeke.

Haitian reality is such in a survival state that it should exempt its population from moral behavior. Everything they do should be comprehensible and excusable.

r
Fok yo viv tou! Sa se biznis pa yo! Volo volo pa peshe! [/quote]

Men jan mwen te deja prevwa, lò ou prezante yon move agiman, ou pito fouye trou ou rantre ladan l lan pi fon toujou olye ou admèt ke sa ou te di a pa bon.

Mwen rankontre atitid sa byen souvan, ki fè mwen pa pantan ni mwen pa pral pèdi plis tan sou sa ankò. Kontinye ankouraje koripsyon epi yon jou ou va remake ke se tèt ou w ap pase nan tenten.

Ou pa bezwen demontre nou sa yo di sou koripsyon nan peyi soudevlope yo. Nou konnen pafètman li egziste, men sa pa vle di pou otan ke nou dwe ankouraje l. Epi afiche koripsyon ti peyi pòv kankou Ayiti, e fè konsi koripsyon pa grav lakay ou, se yon pratik ki pwofondeman rasis. Kalkile pou mwen silvouplè konbyen fwa ekonomi nasyonal peyi dayiti rantre anndan chif ki reprezante valè koripsyon ki pratike nan konpayi tankou ENRON, WORLDCOM, HALLIBURTON, elatriye. Sa gen kèk mwa de sa
, mwen aprann nan nouvèl ke apeprè 9 milya dola ($9.000.000.000!!!) disparèt san tras nan ekonomi IRAK la, pandan l te swadizan sou kontwòl yon administratè ameriken. Nan men kiyès ou panse 9 milya dola sa pase, Michel... Nan men Saddam Hussein? Nan men Aristide?? Nan men diktatè afriken yo???

Koripsyon ti peyi, koripsyon gwo peyi, tout se vòlè. Si koripsyon nan gran peyi yo kondanab, koripsyon nan ti peyi yo kondanab tou. Si koripsyon nan ti peyi yo kondanab, koripsyon nan gran peyi yo kondanab tou. Dayè, Michel, pou yon moun kap sipèvize kontra ki vo konbyen milya dola nan Washington, mwen sipoze sa rantre nan fòmasyon ou pou w pa mele ak anyen ki gen sant koripsyon. Si m manti, fè m konnen.

Ou refize adrese dirèkteman pawòl ou te site yo, ke mwen mete alevidans la. Ou pito fè dilatwa ak yon dividal lòt koze. Men, Michel, tout moun sou fowòm lan deja konnen sa ou te ekri. Kidonk, se sa ou te ekri an premye a pou w adrese. Tout r
ès la se dilatwa.

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Post by admin » Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:50 pm

Passons.

Perhaps we can make headway elsewhere.

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:02 am

Nan tout diskisyon sa yo, men sa m wè: Serge an patikilye ap chache solisyon ki ta sòti loske lalwa peyi a respekte; Michel bò kote pa l ap pale de bagay k ap pase lòske se lalwa forè (loi de la jungle) k ap domine. Nou pap gade menm bagay - dapre mwen. Kidonk nou pap janm ka dakò.

Poukisa gen defwa yo arete moun ki nan koripsyon nan gwo peyi yo, menmsi yo gen lajan? Se paske, omwens, gen lwa nan peyi sa yo, lwa ke tout moun ekri, vote e aksepte ansanm. Ayiti poko rive la, kidonk pèp ayisyen poko ap ka konbat koripsyon.

Koripsyon se yon bagay ki nan moun menm, keseswa nan peyi devlope ou byen nan peyi pòv. Men, menmjan tropik te chante l la: rat manje kann, zandolit mouri inosan.

gelin

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:46 am

[quote]Koripsyon se yon bagay ki nan moun menm, keseswa nan peyi devlope ou byen nan peyi pòv.[/quote]

Gelin, sò di a se vre. Sepandan, nan peyi devlope yo gen sistèm pou dekouraje koripsyon (law enforcement, investigation of criminal acts, prosecutions, etc). Diskisyon nap fè an se sou kesyon legitim (legitimate) koripsyon tankou Michel te sikgere an.

Lefèt ke koripsyon eksiste pa vle di ke n oblije rekonèt ke li gen yon dwa pou yon moun komèt li. Diferans ant peyi devlope e peyi soudevlope sè ke lan yon, yo dekouraje koripsyon paske yo gen mwayen pou prosekite'l (prosecute). Alòske lan ti peyi yo, pa gen mwayen sa yo e koripsyon ap fè mikala'w. Sa pa vle di ke li legitim lan peyi pòv.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:48 pm

[quote]..... Nou ta remin ouwe ke Leta pase pran tout vole public kou prive .

Min nin yo devan tribunal la jistis pou yo jije korekteman.

Pou yo publikman devan tout moun gwo jou nin di : ki jan, konan, ki le e avek ki yes yo tap komet sak kriminel sa yo.

Sa ke Leta jouyen koupab, arete yo e mete yo nan prison e sezi byen pesonel e biznis yo.

San bagay sa yo pap kap gin dialog e solidarite antr 3 roch sa yo [leta, lelite, e la mas] ki kinbe anba shodiye aveni peyi d'Haiti. [/quote]

Michel,

Kwake lan pati sa, se mas lan ou di kap pale, pati final lan se ou menm kap pale. Si se ou menm, ou bay lot yo rezon ke koripsyon pa ekskisab e yo dwo prosekite l. Si Leta prosekite li, kididonk Leta kondane aksyon an. E kom Leta represante sosyete an, kididonk sosyete Ayitien an pa adopte yon posisyon de tolerans a koripsyon. Li jès twò fèb pou konbat li
.

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Post by admin » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:35 pm

!

!!

!!!

Michel, I am happy to see you come back to your senses.

Kaka je pa linèt!

In this particular thread, you have been ALL OVER THE PLACE.

At times, defending corruption as being acceptable, in the name of realism.

At this time, condemning corruption unequivocally.

At other times, obfuscating the issue like a seasoned veteran of Republican politics.

But in the end, rejecting your previously untenable position and coming round a sensible position, which several of us advocated earlier.

I sincerely hope that it is genuine, Michel.

You made a retraction, and managed to make it sound like it was not a retraction,
but as I said earlier, "kaka je pa linèt!".


We do have other issues, such as your position on Jean-Juste's imprisonment , your take on the Andy Apaid-Charles Baker-Reginald Boulos trio, and their elevation to business role models for Haiti, and your experience as an underprivileged member of Haitian society (ki te viv doulè wòch nan solèy!!)

All of this, we look forward to discussing with you and learning from you, as an active and generous participant in our debates here on Ann Pale.

But first, you had to come to your senses. And you did!

Congratulations! (I wish I could say the same for your Haitian Creole, the spelling of which too is all over the place. Sometimes, I experience doulè wòch nan solèy just reading it.)

But in this too, I realize that you are the ha
rdest nut to crack. Obstinate to the end, and unrepentant about writing badly.

I now assume that this must be your style.

One day [like we've seen today], something will happen to make you come around.

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:26 pm

[quote]...In Haiti black people have been leading for years, and now the mulattos, European and Middle East descent are positioning for political power. If they couldn't be elected, they surely would be behind the scene pulling the strings. [/quote]

Michel bòspapa, nan ki liv istwa dayiti ou jwenn kokenn chenn pawòl sa a?

gelin

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:06 pm

[quote]...Gelin, mesye sa yo gen plis chance ke mememm ak ou memm ki pitit pitit pitit te Dayiti vin prezidan.

Konstitisyon peyi a di ke Mesye sa yo capab e gen dwa vin prezidan Dayiti. [/quote]

Michel, men 2 kesyon pou ou:

1. kouman ou fè konnen ke mesye sa yo gen anpil chans?

2. konstitisyon 87 la paske li pa alamòd ankò, poukisa ou pale de li toujou?

gelin

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