Les mêmes causes produisent les mêmes effets

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Hyppolite
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:39 pm

Les mêmes causes produisent les mêmes effets

Post by Hyppolite » Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:07 pm

I tend to write long but will try to be succint here. Like they say in French, the same causes always give birth to the same set of results. That's what we've been having in Haiti for more than a century. Yet, many mostly young Haitian intellectuals seem to think that by using the same set of procedures, they will get different results.

Violence begets violence begets violence begets violence. Politics has nothing pure about it; it's always about dealmaking. When something's not working right, you have to have the courage to try something different. That's where brother Jafrik and I, and many other fellow Haitians disagree.

The popular solution that I could propone, would be to agree to try and eradicate from the land, one way or the other, these arch-conservatives. But it didn't get that way without the establishment of a system and that's my point. Yo
u have to first know and understand the system rather than attacking all the time those who benefit from it to the detriment of the country.

Let's face it: the very first Haitian leader who has tried to dismantle that system was Soulouque. He failed for specific reasons.

Then we had Salomon who could have succeeded but had the same problem: he thought he was the only one who could do the job. Therefore, we had to start again from point 0.

Since then, a few had tried to either cajole the oligarchs, or kill them outright. They have all failed for the very same reasons. Again, as we say in French, les mêmes causes produisent les mêmes effets.

To dismantle that system, which Estimé, Duvalier, Aristide tried to, you cannot be radical. You cannot. You have to be precise and cautious. You have to rework the power system so it becomes excruciatingly difficult and even, impossible for those oligarchs to undo what's right. That's a thinking function first th
at must be in the open through debate. It requires historical analysis and understanding of how politics work in modern and developed nations.

Blaming France, Canada, and the US will not do the trick. It's up to us to figure it out. But thus far, anyone who suggests ways that are not radical are rejected.

Look, Estimé and Salomon almost won but didn't because of one problem: they thought they were the only ones who could do the job. Aristide just fell flat for many different reasons, one of which being that he thought he was the only one who could do the job, some kind of Haitian Moses. So why don't we look at the issue of autocracy first, before we focus on the oligarchs?

I don't know. I give up on this one. It's not making sense to fellow Haitians because many of them seem to only want to see blood. I will tell you, regaring this: in this issue of blood, mwen pa ladan l

We've been killing each other for the longest,
without any positive result to show. If anything, we have gone bacward every time. So why would one think that by being violent once more, the problem of the oligarchs in Haiti can be resolved?

Makes no sense to me, neither rational sense, nor common sense.

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:37 pm

Hyppolite, let me start by this song:

TOUT SAK PA BON POU YOUN, LI BON POU OUN LOT.

By looking at the fiscal system of the developed countries. We would see that everyone pays taxes.

Guess what a chaotic system like ours, introducing a true fiscal system would not be advantageous or profitable for a lot of people.

Remember, this was one of Aristide's problems. Going after the big shots for back taxes and other debts...

Would they accept a better Haiti? Nope!

Other obstacle: the insecurity which is our main production presently?

Do you know that a lot of the thugs killing or kidnapping people, have a security company. For instance, Danny King Security etc.

Would they want a secure Haiti, where everyone will live in peace? Again, nope!

And you probably know about the black market of various goods... Our border is so leaky or open, I can't find a word to define it.

How about t
he slaves (bòn ak restavèk yo ) payless or underpaid. A better system would definitely put an end to this. Would people in Haiti accept it??

What about the educational system, you probably have to close a lot of "lekòl bòlèt" ...

So many holes, health care, the environment and others.

We have so many people to challenge. People who benefited outrageously from Haiti's misfortune and misery.

You can see in most of my posts, I have "L'union fait la force". But, I always knew that this would not work with the zenglendo, kadejakè, "aloufa gwo lide ti memwa" ki sou teren an. They have to be eradicated somehow, for, Haiti does not need them. They will not change. That is my opinion.

I am not off. I was trying to show you that dialogue did not and won't work. Perhaps, we would need more therapists in Haiti for these sick bastards and the traumatized masses.

Hyppolite, frè m, pita ap pi tris. Kapab gen plis san kap koule. We can have a major civil war, soon. A peine si le
s plus justes seront sauvés...

Viv Ayiti endepandan!
leonel

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:43 am

Hyppolite,

I think you are right on the money! I don't have time now to comment on so many good common sense and historical points you made. I will add to your analysis that many of the good brothers you mentioned, who care a lot about Haiti and the Haitian masses in your analysis, do not realize by their radicalism they are continuing the problem instead of contributing to its solution. As long as one wants to eradicate, those you want to eradicate will want to do the same to you. Via that process we have been eradicating throughout history the best minds and resources Haiti had produced. It explains partly the brain drain in Haiti today.

If we want Haiti to progress, the country has to have cooperation between its most contributing resources. Continuing the path of perennial self-eradication is "koupe tèt, boule kay" which had plagued us for years and is at the root of our problems today. It is time we recognize that, follow Sou
th Africa's Truth and Reconciliation type path, and make cooperation and dialogue within respect the guiding principle for our future. It requires sacrifices from both sides.

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:18 am

[quote]...If we want Haiti to progress, the country has to have cooperation between its most contributing resources.[/quote]
Whatever happens with the upcoming elections (?), and whoever is elected president, there is only one thing that must happen first before any of these system analyses/changes can begin to make sense: haitians must agree that there is a constitution to respect and follow. It's that simple.

Now, the logic of the latest episode was that we must violate the constitution in order to remove from power a team accused of violating that same constitution. The reasoning goes like this: because you have violated our constitution, we are going to violate it also in order to try to enforce it, and to show you that you should have never violated it. Funny? Sad? But that was the game played by some of our most prominent intellectuals.

The sacrifices on both sides you talked about, jmf
, must concern the respect of the law of the land. If not, lawlessness will control the land. That's true everywhere, even right across the river macassia...on the same land mass.

gelin

Hyppolite
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 12:39 pm

Post by Hyppolite » Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:30 am

I didn't realize there were so many replies to this post. I won't be long today but just wanted to reply mostly to a comment by Marylin.

I made a very poor choice of words here by using the term eradicate. I do not mean to kill. I mean to create new dynamism whereby the typical arch-conservatives in Haiti will themselves be transformed.Thus, their current attitude will change by force of the facts, not by using guns.

As you know Marylin, it is totally unlike me to suggest the killing of people because of their idea. I am sorry for such poor choice of word. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:22 pm

Michel wrote:
[quote]Are you going to eradicate also the handicap, the blind, the elderly, the ugly, gay and lesbian, the mentally challenge etc..?

Leonel please!

Pa pouse do yo ale!

Pa ede yo pati! [/quote]

It is more advisable to understand the context of a quote, before coming with something that is not there.

Your question needs another question: Why would someone wants to eradicate the people that you mentionned above???

Are you lost in your readings again? Referring to quotes that are inexistant!

Explain to me what is a Jack Kervokian?

Michel, as always, you are off-mark.

Read my previous posts once more or get them translated some how. It is a proven fact: When there is a maglignant Cancer, it should be eradicated.-

Are you afraid of blood?

You need to stay with reality. It would have been so great to live in harmony. But, unfortunately
, it won't happen, Not anytime soon , anyway.

Hyppolite, Marilyn, Gelin, I am sorry to interrupt these wonderful exchanges. But, I had to tell Michel to stop quoting someone wrongly as always.

Kanmarad, pran on ti tan pou w konprann sak ap pale, anvan w parEt a on charabia de J Kervokian ki pa menm nan plas li.

Word of wisdom, take a little longer to read and understand someone quotes before answering anyhow...

L'union fait la force,
leonel

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:53 pm

[quote]But let's keep this in mind: No outside force or dynamic imposed by others will transform the arch-conservatives in Haiti.

- The carrot and the stick have been used ad nauseum and this just plain has not worked. These guys take the carrot and always stay one step ahead of the stick.

- And we already now know that they will not adhere to the Constitution. At least they haven't yet. They cherry pick the parts they like and which advance their interests and agendas and ignore or disobey the rest.

Only they can decide to transform themselves from the inside out, allowing their commitment to a Haiti with dignity and opportunity for all Haitians to over-ride their megalomania and egocentrism. [/quote]

Marilyn,

If I am right, Steven Covey of "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective people" called what you just described a paradigm shift. And, according to the paradigm shift theo
ry, that "inside out" transformation does not normally happen without a major traumatic event triggering it. He gave a crippling illness, death in the family, divorce, etc., as examples of major traumatic events.

I always thought of the country's economic deterioration and misery could be classified as major traumatic events. But we all know that much has not changed despite them. I certainly guess that foreign occupation is certainly a major traumatic event. I hope we don't have to wait for something that bad to happen to raise our consciousness. Whatever it is, I can't wait for a change for the better.

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