Election Brings Chance For a New Beginning

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Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Wed Jan 12, 2005 1:00 am

Elections bring changes?

Well Michel, that is very true: MADE IN ISRAEL AND USA.

LA RAISON DU PLUS FORT EST TOUJOURS LA MEILLEURE...

Peace!
leonel

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Post by admin » Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:12 pm

[quote]There is no other way! [/quote]
It's at least curious that there is no other way NOW, but a different way was found to get rid of Aristide, wouldn't you say???

Also, I must have missed a particular document that you might want to bring to light. The promise that the Occupation by the foreign forces will stop when [and only when???] Haitians line up and vote.

Do not interpret the above as an argumentation against elections in Haiti. I will formulate my position on the subject at a later time. Just see it as my spontaneous reaction to your great urgency to advocate that Haitians line up and vote.

So, don't read into my comments more than what I have said. I would simply like you to address the two points that I have raised.

Thanks.

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:18 am

MIchel, You are right. The Haitian people are counting on Us or the USA to bring back their elected President.-

Yourself, you think vote= Democracy. Myself, I do not think that Democracy equals vote. From 2000-2004 I have learned my lesson different in the US or elsewhere. Democracy equals Power of big Corporations or Elite.-

Michel, you also think that the Haitian masses can put their Man in... Well, the same way that we put our Man in the White House.

Michel, let me make this clearer once more. I did not like JBA's policies. But, the Man was elected for 5 years. He should finish his term Democratically. I wonder how it would be if GW Bush was sent to South Africa before the end of his term. OUR DEMOCRATICALLY OHIO/FLORIDA CHEATING/STEALING- PRESIDENT...

Everyone has right to his opinion, no matter how silly or Naive He or She can be...
Peace!
leonel

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Post by admin » Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:02 pm

Funny, Michel, I don't remember telling you that I was against democratic elections!!

I simply asked you to clarify some of your statements. That's all. Is that an impossible task?

This is exactly what I wrote, after you claimed "There is no other way!"

[quote]It's at least curious that there is no other way NOW, but a different way was found to get rid of Aristide, wouldn't you say???

Also, I must have missed a particular document that you might want to bring to light. The promise that the Occupation by the foreign forces will stop when [and only when???] Haitians line up and vote.

Do not interpret the above as an argumentation against elections in Haiti. I will formulate my position on the subject at a later time. Just see it as my spontaneous reaction to your great urgency to advocate that Haitians line up and vote.

So, don't read into my comments more than wh
at I have said. I would simply like you to address the two points that I have raised.

Thanks.[/quote]

Michel, you appear to be saying this:
"There is no other way, even though I have no historical precedent to show you that it works! Never mind our experience of the last 15 years!!! That experience is irrelevant. Believe me, I have a Vision. I can offer you no guarantees whatsoever, but you just have to believe me. Just line up and vote already! It's actually TRUE, folks, if the international community, the U.S. primarily, does not like our choice, THEY WILL COME AND ANNUL IT, but then we will get another chance to do it all over again, and again, and again, UNTIL WE GET IT RIGHT."</b>

Michel, I am not trying to put words in your mouth, believe me, you are not my enemy, and I have no idea where you stand ideologically. I am just pointing to the cold, logic-based value of the dialectic you offer us. I gave you a chanc
e to refine it, so you can convince more people that there is truthfully some benefit to them, behind this evangelical zeal to jump on the elections bandwagon. I HAVE NOT TOLD YOU THAT I AM AGAINST ELECTIONS FOR HAITI IN 2005 OR ANY OTHER YEAR. So, I do not understand why you try to turn my request for clarification to a posture where I suddenly have to explain what options are more viable than elections. This is the equivalent of saying to anyone "Jesus IS the way. SHOW ME THAT HE IS NOT."

I am sorry, but let me tell you, I still cling to my democratic ideals, even though I live in the U.S.A. where anti-democratic forces have had a field day, both at home and abroad, since the attack of September 11, 2001 and probably even before that fateful date. You don't have to preach the value of democracy to me, but perhaps your friends at the White House, the GWU alumni, could benefit from your insights. Who knows, perhaps those ideas might percolate some day and make it to the Oval Office. Perhaps those
guys might come to consider that democracy is not simply a procedural affair, but that it implies as well some demonstrable respect for the "one man one vote" principle.

I give you enough credit, Michel, to believe THAT YOU CAN find some persuasive arguments to sell elections to Haitians. But please consider that Haitians were not born yesterday. We are not that naive, Michel. And while we are not known for our long-term memory, our short-term memory is not all that defective. How many times do you expect to sell "EX LAX" chocolates to the same people while telling them that they are simply dessert and nothing more??? Our diarrhea has not stopped, Michel, and here you are offering us more "chocolates". Can you at least show us that the ingredients are different from those you provided us the last time around? Diarrhea is not such a nice sensation, you know. We would like some basic guarantees. Are we or are we not entitled to them?

I certainly have never
put myself in a position where I have to prove to anyone that elections are not the way. I have paid my dues as an electoral observer in Haiti. Could I possibly have more respect for the electoral process than the evangelists that are pushing it??? There is something wrong with that picture.

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Post by admin » Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:40 pm

Actually, Jaf, you have shown us some gaping holes in Michel's presentation so far.

I have pointed to some of the same.

But I do not believe that you have shown us why it is "useless to try to engage Michel in this particular discussion".

The brother is not hopeless (as far as I know). Don't let his evangelical zeal fool you. Some people are just like that. But I believe that a calm and respectful discussion of the principles at play can be beneficial, not only to Michel, but to all who are reading these threads.

Have Haitian politics been reduced to "born again" neoconservative propaganda? I hope not...

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:46 pm

Michel about "hardliners", I do not get offended. For, you are over-estimating me. Myself among those Icons, such an eloquent group, such intellect, I say thank you!

Everyone has a right to decide his own destiny, including the Haitian Masses. I don't have a problem with you. But your Ideology based on your writings so far is very questionable. Patriot Act, Vote, You gotta be kidding!

Are you for real? Are you one of those "Yes Masser" from DC?

I am speechless. Please, tell me that you are joking?

By the way, why don't we vote for Chamblain or Guy Philippe or Metayer, because it seems that Voting is your real concern...

Mwen pa fouti nan voye roch kache men. Show your true color, my friend. WOH is for everyone, including Makout. You are all welcome...

L'union fait la Force
leonel

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:53 pm

Michel, I apologize, for I did not use the Makout properly. I was not referring to you. My call was to anyone with a Makout background to come with ideas concerning Haiti...

I would not use that word anymore. Frankly, I did not use it for you. Although, like I've stated before, your previous threads on the Hero Act and other are very suspicious to me.

By the way, I am not offended at all if one needs to call me Makout. I was born and raised under a Makout regime. Therefore I still have the traits. Sometimes, I believe most of us have a behavior very close to "Otorite konnen tout bagay". The difference between myself and another type of Makout, I would not kill my Brothers. I would not steal from them.

Michel, you really misinterpreted my use of the word. Maybe I was supposed to use it in another paragraph.

I wanted to say, everyone should not feel threatened by our nationalist positions at WOH. I believe there are a
lot of qualified people who would have a civilized discussion with anyone. And if we try to get more personal, our great webmaster would mediate in his usual and intelligent way.

Remember, I've stated also: Mwen pap voye wòch, kache men. I say it for Jaf, Serge, Marylin, Nekita, Zanf and everyone (almost) at Ann Pale. They would tell you, point blank, what they think. If you think of anything else, you're in the wrong forum, my friend.

By the way, you think that I'm against voting? Are you OK? The people voted for their President... Which part don't you understand?

Try to answer this part, if you may. Don't overreact. We can disagree, please come with the reason why you think that the 2000 election is not valid?

If you don't understand my questions, please ask before assuming that I've called you names... not my intention.

Also, you need to know more about Denmark, their social services etc. Maybe you would change the superiority mentality
that "USA is the place". DC is also cold, isn't it? USA is not a foreign soil?

Michel, I believe you can do better than that...

Peace!
leonel

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