Why is it that these governments are so easy to overthrow?

Post Reply
T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:19 am

[quote]
Why is it that these governments are so easy to overthrow. Is it because they are financially vulnerable or is it because they dont have the capacity to resist strife amongst themselves ???
The government of France would surely like to overthrow the US government. Russia tried for decades to overthrow the US government. Some say the US had a hand in trying to overthrow the Venezuelan government but failed. The US has been trying to overthrow Castro's government for nearly 40 years. However in Haiti and in some parts of Africa the US flicks its pinky finger and the whole house comes tumbling down like a deck of cards. Why is that ?[/quote]

Ziggy,

My guess is that it depends on the strength of the leader of the government, and not necessarily the country. Take our own Haiti, for example, that you put among those easy to tumble. While I am not by a long shot a fan of Francois Duvalier -
it is actually the total opposite - he was able to resist pressure from the governments of John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon who tried consistently to have him overthown. Remember the song: "Etrange pa mele lan zafe.....Aytien." I am not sure exactly of the last word in that stance but you got the idea. Duvalier consistently and successfully resisted the efforts to topple him by the foreign powers and internal forces. It was too bad that Duvalier used his leadership strength to serve himself and not the country.

The point is that weak leaders like Aristide were blinded by their ideology and failed to recognize the realities surrounding them. In the process, they allowed others to exploit their weaknesses - failed assessment of the realities of their power - that usually culminate with their premature loss of the leadership position. Aristide should have known that his powers had limits and when he reached that edge, he should have negotiated and compromised for the sake of his greater g
oals. That was the cause of his downfall and that of the many other African leaders you mentioned.

Foreign powers know the limits of their powers. That is why China's communism cannot be attacked while Chavez socialism is under attack. That is why Castro's communism is the evil of the world, while China's communism is good enough to do business with. Western governments are smart and realistic people who understand the limits of their power. They don't commit suicide! Many of those countries and leaders who were victimized that you mentioned still don't understand that. It is taking them too long to learn. It cost them. Aristide should have learned from his first term and he did not. It has cost the country and his supporters a lot. As a leader, he had a responsibility towards those who supported him. He failed them. The worst that can happen to him and to them is to continue that non-sense of returning him to power, which is unrealistic. His supporters need to move on by looking and finding a new
leader who can continue to champion the ideas that won him their loyalty. The ideas of his party should be the revolution not him. They should be able to outlive him. It is time his supporters get their priorities in order. That should be the country and the millions of Haitians who live in abject misery and povery every day. For, Aristide's government has not been good for them by the longest stretch of the imagination. They should look for a leader who can give them jobs, unite the country, and stop the move backward the country has been on for more than fifty years now.

Jean-Marie

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:05 am

Both of you are right. Personally, I think the US can affect any country politically. Including Brasil, Venezuela and Cuba. We are living in an era where the US is The mighty one. Only nature can bring it down. They are influencing the world in every sense. Scary, but it's reality.

That is why also I agree with JM thread. Aristide made a very big mistake by alienating OPL. He payed the consequences. The man was an egomaniac who thought that he could rule the country with his "Je sais tout" attitude.

Although, I am still against the "Coup". But, the man was an activist, not a leader.

Going back to Francois who is a carbon-copy of Aristide. Ziggy is right, there was the expansion and threat of Communism which Francois played very well to his favor.

Today in Haiti, Gro-Gera is using another big "ISM" which is also to his favor so far.

Again, both of you are right. I also think, there are more competent people in
side the Lavalas party. For instance, Malval I think can be a positive choice???

L'union fait la Force"
leonel

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:46 am

Aristide was overthrown because his government was a dictatorship?

What naivete!

The actual governements of Nicaragua, Salvador and most of all Guatemala, are more democratic than Aristide's was?

In Guatemala, the real power is still the army.
Judges, journalists, human rights advocates continue to disappear.
One dares to criticize the army at your own risk and peril; the oligarchy continues to reign supreme.
And those who say that Duvalier was under pressure by the United States during his reign (yes, he had absolute power); yes, he was during the Kennedy administration and he wouldn't have survived if Kennedy wasn't assassinated.
See what happened to Trujillo who was done in by the CIA.

But, during the Johnson and Nixon administrations, Duvalier became a linchpin in the Cuban policy of contaiment. After the rise of the left in the Dominican Republic, with Caamano Deno, Duvalier could do as he pleases i
n Haiti.

What had he done; what is his legacy?
After Duvalier, the literacy rate was only 20%.
A literacy program is not something that requires huge outlays of capital as, YES, the Lavalas governments have proven.

Aristide is no bargain, but please no revisionist history; for those of us who have witnessed the "rise of the maison Duvalier", please keep things in perspective.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:58 am

[quote]What had he done; what is his legacy?
After Duvalier, the literacy rate was only 20%.
A literacy program is not something that requires huge outlays of capital as, YES, the Lavalas governments have proven.

Aristide is no bargain, but please no revisionist history; for those of us who have witnessed the "rise of the maison Duvalier", please keep things in perspective.[/quote]

Jonas,

My friend, you are getting me wrong! I am no fan of Francois Duvalier, it is quite the contrary, and I wrote it:

[quote]While I am not by a long shot a fan of Francois Duvalier - it is actually the total opposite - he was able to resist pressure from the governments of John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon who tried consistently to have him overthown.[/quote]

There were two reasons why I referred to Francois Duvalier. One was to compare his intelli
gence and ability to that of Aristide as a leader. What I mean by intelligence was the ability to set personal goals and reach them. Francois Duvalier died almost in his sleep as president of Haiti and reached most of his goals of presidency for life and appointing his son, while Aristide is now in exile and cannot even sleep well with threats of international criminal indictments. The second reason was to respond to Ziggy's question of some countries vulnerability to the US influence. And again, I made the point that the vulnerability was in the leaders not necessarily in the countries. To support that I gave him Francois Duvalier's successful resistance to the US in the 1960s. Nowhere there in my post I tried to compare Duvalier and Aristide in terms of their accomplishments for the country. To be honest with you I don't think I know enough about Aristide's administration accomplishments in Haiti to be able to do an intelligent comparison. During his terms I was living in the USA.

Talking of w
hich, I did not fully understand which administration you were referring to when you said this:

[quote]What had he done; what is his legacy?
After Duvalier, the literacy rate was only 20%.
A literacy program is not something that requires huge outlays of capital as, YES, the Lavalas governments have proven.[/quote]

When you said "HE" are you referring to Duvalier or Aristide?

[quote]Both of you are right. Personally, I think the US can affect any country politically. Including Brasil, Venezuela and Cuba. We are living in an era where the US is The mighty one. Only nature can bring it down. They are influencing the world in every sense. Scary, but it's reality.[/quote]

Leonel,

I may try to be too technical here, but historically superpowers' life, like evrything else human, is temporary. You can go from the Ottoman Empire, the Roman empire, Britain's, German's, etc ending with the US. My g
uess is that there will be a next superpower after the US - I will be dead by that time - and it will probably be China.

But, in principle you are absolutely right that the US power is such now that it is scary. Only self-restraint can hold them. That is why we are disappointed when we try to elect a self-restraint president and he did not succeed.



[quote] That is why also I agree with JM thread. Aristide made a very big mistake by alienating OPL. He payed the consequences. The man was an egomaniac who thought that he could rule the country with his "Je sais tout" attitude.[/quote]

Kudo, there, my friend! You put it better than I could.

[quote]Although, I am still against the "Coup". But, the man was an activist, not a leader.[/quote]

I have been trying to find a description of him, I think you found it, man! If he did not learn from his first exile, he will never learn!


[quote]Going back to Francois who is a carbon-copy of Aristide. Ziggy is right, there was the expansion and threat of Communism which Francois played very well to his favor.[/quote]

That's where Aristide was not able to copy Duvalier. The latter knew how to take advantage of opportunities and make them work in his favor. In other words, Francois was more intelligent. It is too bad his motives were machiavellic. He understood the realities of life, haitian and world politics. From that standpoint, Aristide was as naive as a 19-year old.


[quote]Again, both of you are right. I also think, there are more competent people inside the Lavalas party. For instance, Malval I think can be a positive choice??? [/quote]

The first time I heard the idea of looking for other leaders in the Lavalas party was listening on Haitian radio in Miami when Hearnst Phanor on 1320 AM suggested it in an effort to contai
n the supporters of Aristide who were spewing insults on anything non-Aristide mentioned on his show. Since then, it seemed to me that was the way to go if you take into account the realities of politics both in and outside of Haiti. But, I am not hopeful that his partisans will show they are that smart. Their track record is pitiful.

Jean-Marie

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:28 am

JM,
The question I asked was about the legacy of Duvalier.
Duvalier was succesful at one thing: perpetuate himself and his retinue into power.

I also made reference to the literacy race, which the Lavalas has increased significantly.

The CIA WORLDFACT BOOK has indicated that 1/2 the population has now some degree of literacy.

This is no small achievement in the Haitian context, considering that in the previous 190 years the literacy rate had never exceeded 20%.

This is one of the reasons I advocated that you guys keep things in perspective.

JM,
I have been living in the U.S. since the 60s; I am no Lavalas partisan, hell I don't even know these guys.

What I am tired of is of these "coups d'etat" ad infinitum.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:56 am

Jaf and Jonas,

Guys, you need to understand some things in my writings and my way of thinking which is very prevalent in them. I can focus on one aspect of someone's personality to make a point, for example his good side, or his negative side to make another point, without mentioning both together in order to advance the idea I am supporting. I will do that some times even though overall I think one side overshadows the other side. The omission of one side is not a statement of irrelevance or insignificance. It is just the process of mental segmentation for analysis.

I believe if you want to remain objective you have to be able to distinguish good and bad in a person's actions or personalities even if that person is a family member, your religious leader or your favorite politician. So the day I focus on Aristide's positive contribution to the democratic process in Haitian politics or his exposition of the ineptitude and lack of
patriotism of the Haitian elite , please don't go around announcning that I am an Aristide's fan. I did not say that.

[quote]Look how yesterday in the U.S.A. 4 professional liars (Bush the father, Bush the son, Bill the gigolo, and Carter the fake democrat) all played their script to perfection while they "christen" the Clinton Library.[/quote]

Jaf,
You are over simplifying the complex structure and system that characterize and shape the behaviors of those former presidents. What you called their script is no more than personal discipline and respect which we, Haitians, lack a lot. You and I we agree on a lot of things. The major difference in opinions lay in the fact that you blame evrybody else for our problems except ourselves. The problems in Haitian history have been caused by both our incompetence and the ill-will of foreigners. As a country,we will never make any progress unless we can do an introspection, recognize our errors and take action to
prevent them from happening in the future. We live in a competitive world. Every country is defending its own and tries to take advantage of other countries that allowed them in order to promote their own. When we allow others to take advantage of us, we are primarily responsible because we know the rules. P.W. Botha said it well - and yes I abhor his apartheid policy - "Countries don't have friends, they have interest." If we cannot understand that, we should not try to play in the major leagues (international politics). By we I mean the inept Haitian leaders and elite who are breaking the hearts of poor Haitians with false hopes.

[quote]I cringe when I read Haitians who were alive during the period 1990-2004 as thinking adults trying to escape their responsibility as grown adults who can influence the course of history pretend not to understand how all the efforts and sacrifices the Haitian people have made to establish a democratic system has been crushed - not by H
aitians but by FOREIGNERS. Yes, FOREIGNERS. Of course, they used our weaknesses, our contradictions, our imperfections to arrive at that goal. But, let us not become complete fools who always turn on ourselves because we are too F. scared of the real ennemy who has punked us, very much "in your face".[/quote]

Jaf, I feel your pain, man! It is mine too. But, this is just an emotional reaction. Our task is to analyze this to sort out fiction from reality. This way, we can use our wisdom to inform others in a way so that in the future opportunities like we had during the period you mentioned are not wasted.

19-year olds can afford to dream. We cannot. We have to deal with the realities of life in the 21st century. They are that, in life you must compromise to get what you want, specifically when your cause is a just cause. Aristide's cause was a just one. Getting the Haitian people out of their misery is something worth fighting and dying for, not betting their whole future as you lose
more. And, that's what he did by allowing the premature end of his administration the way it happened. President Aristide could have anticipated that. Look at John Kerry's reaction, regardless of how flawed it was.

Empowering the Haitian poors was a just cause. This way, they can control their own destiny and make better choices than others can do for them. Those, to me, were the aspirations of President Aristide. When I say he failed in reaching his aspirations, I mean no disrespect to him. I just point out to his underperformance as I see it. If I am unfair in judging his accomplishments, let's discuss that. Not only I would learn something I failed to notice, but also nobody wanted him to succeed more than I did. And I am not even touching when his personal goals conflicted with his aspirations for the country and that of the Haitian poors. That was not my intent to cover this issue, and I have no desire to bring it up because the elite of the country, in my view, was more to blame for the prob
lems during this period than was President Aristide himself. By pointing at his failings, I want to point at errors that we should not repeat in the future.

[quote]To even try to compare President Aristide who was elcted twice by the people of Haiti and overthrown twice by the Bush gang - in the overt way we all know....with Francois Duvalier whose dictatorship was by 1963 completely and openly supported by the U.S. (they trained both the Tonton Makout and the Leopards).... means that we are a people without memory. That's why, we could have allowed the criminal french to return to Haiti in this year 2004.[/quote]

Jaf, the French did not return while Duvalier was in power! Now, let's put that Duvalier thing to rest once and for all. To me, no other president in the 20th century did more damage to the country than Francois Duvalier did, including Aristide. That does not mean I can't say that during my lifetime in Haiti - from 1953 to 1983 - the period during
Jean-Claude Duvalier was economically the most promising I lived under. I used to say during that period of time that the Duvalier regime is the biggest obstacle to Haiti's development and progress. And that, after them, the country can't get any worse. I have to swallow my pride now and admit that it could and did get worse.
[quote]Folks, last January 2003 I was writing a note on the situation in Haiti and I had only two good things to observe then 1) The oppresive french military which kept our people in bondage for over 300 years was still at bay and not not been able to return to the island in 200 years 2) The repressive FAdH which the U.S.A armed and equipped to keep the Africans of Haiti "in their place" was disbanded and out of work.... [/quote]

You are absolutely right that politically we made progress under the administration of President Aristide. I am sure you read posts I wrote on this forum where I indicated I consider his accomplishments there like
"glasnost" (political openness) and that "perestroika" was where more progress remains to be done. And that despite the lack of a "perestroika' like progress, having him there, as incompetent as he was in uniting the country to move forward, it was better than the kidnapping and the following occupation. But now that it is done, we need to move forward.

By moving forward, I don't mean we need to support the occupation or the policies of the current administration. By the way, other than witch-hunting on Lavalas people, can somebody tell me what is the current administration policy and vision for the country? By moving forward, I mean not letting the idealism of Aristide's aspirations die with his absence in the local political arena. Remember what Toussaint said after being removed out of the country. He did not insist on bringing him back. Instead, he said that "the roots" of his ideals will shoot up new leaders that will continue his struggle. That's all I am asking you guys to consider, becaus
e it is smarter and more productive than blaming the rest of the world.

Jean-Marie

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:46 pm

I don't know where to start. I need to go to Guy's University to learn how to select some quotes...

Anyway, without trying to insult anyone 's intellect. People, we have to be more realistic about certain things. Yes, we are living in a WHITE WORLD, where almost everything is controlled by WHITE PEOPLE. We cannot lie to ourselves anymore. This is reality.

I love Haiti very much, but I don't think the fact that we had problems with the French colonisation in the past that We have to refuse any help from them. I think every developed country had received some help from a former occupier. Although, what is going on in Haiti presently is far from being "help".

"Nou paka fE tankou Gep". We need to know how to make honey from the bees first, and be self-sufficient...

This is a big problem with a lot of us. We have our "Pride". If I want to be a doctor, I'm not gonna fight the Teachers. That was one of Aristide's prob
lem. His oversized Ego. The man had issues with his own circle. That is why, it was so easy to get him out of power. His friends abandonned him (OPL etc etc). He did not use his Motto obviously: "Oun sel nou feb, Ansanm ansanm nou se lavalas".

I wish I had the opportunity to finish. Right now, I 'm very frustrated with POP UPS in my computer...

Jaf, I really like you very much. Believe me I learn from everyone of you. But, I need to say something. Everywhere in the world, there is a minority which controls the wealth. And there is a majority struggling daily. This is Capitalism. It is even worst in Thirld World Countries.

What we all would like to see, is for the majority to at least get the basics that we take for granted: clean and safer water, Education, Health care, electricity, Jobs etc. All of the things that are missing in Haiti.

A leader is not the one who can promise a lot to the masses. A leader is not showing that you can speak fifteen foreign languages. But someone who
can build a bridge between every citizen and every country.

About former colon, Denmark conquered Sweden for some centuries... you should see the cooperation existing between those two countries. And the list goes on.

The Parallel or the Convergence or similarity of Papa Doc and Aristide is so striking, wow. The first time, I heard that from someone in his administration in 1992 (after the coup d'etat 1). That time, I was very upset of that comparison. Then, from so many people (in his adm.), who knew him very well...

There is nothing wrong with that. Like JM, I think Francois was a very smart man and a very good politician (That is where they diverge). And also, Francois was very cruel which Aristide wasn't.

I have to conclude, not because I want to but the pop-ups are unbearable.

Remember, take a one-dollar bill, do you see the eye that is on it. This is the White man, he controls everything, including our life. This is reality, you can be upset, mad, and even hate my o
pinions. But it is true. They can end Humanity, Today...
They control the world, and it is difficult even impossible for a Third World Country to lead without their approval or blessing.
I hate it , we all would like to have autonomy. But the fact is about twenty countries decide on our destiny. (JM, don't ask for any concrete number, it is estimate), just kidding.

I have to go, Peace
L'union fait la Force
leonel

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:35 pm

[quote]I hate it , we all would like to have autonomy. But the fact is about twenty countries decide on our destiny. (JM, don't ask for any concrete number, it is estimate), just kidding.[/quote]

Leonel,

TOUCHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Post Reply