Le CEP fait injonction à Siméus et Mourra de cesser ...

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Liline
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Post by Liline » Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:45 am


M poko janm we poukisa tout konplikasyon sa yo non. The constitution like it or not, is here for a reason, whether or not it was "ever" enforced prior to these elections is not the point here, and definitely should not be used as an excuse to ignore it once more to allow these men to become candidates. I think like someone mentioned in a previous topic (I've been catching up lol) that there are more ways than one to help a country, ou pa oblije prezidan pou sa.

Now, as for the constitution, again like someone mentioned in another topic, it is not what has failed our country in the past, we, and specially the different government parties on too many occasions have failed to enforce it. I think we definitely need to start enforcing the constitution and laws established, this is the only way we can really start moving in the right direction. We need to stop ignoring the law when convenient.


Bon olye pou'm te al reponn diferan sijè yo, m eseye jis mete ide jeneral mwen sou tout koze sa la. :D


I have a question...
Not knowing too much about the details in the constitution, I was wondering, is it possible for someone who has once renounced citizenship to Haiti to go back and try to regain Haitian Citizenship (legally lol) in order to become president? So it's kind of a two part question, first of all can someone who renounced Haitian Citizenship go back and later change it? And second, can someone who did that (that is if the first answer was yes), can this person now run for president?

Liline
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Post by Liline » Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:07 pm


Thank you Serge :-)

Ok, so pa gen espwa pou mesye sa yo menm lol. Oh well, they need to find other ways of helping the country.

And in the mean time, the constitution and laws are not made of stone. Se cheche chanje sa.

Liline
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Post by Liline » Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:37 pm



Se sa Serge, Konstitisyon an ka chanje, sa klè, annatandan li chanje mesye sa yo pa gen espwa vin prezidan. Sa senp. Pito yo cheche lot jan pou ede peyi a.

M twouve li dwòl ke yo vle vin prezidan men yo pa sanble vle respekte konstitisyon ki etabli la kounye a. I find it fake, if you want so much good for the country, then you would not try to go about becoming president when you know the constitution doesn't allow it. They need to find ways to encourage which ever goverment party that gets into office to pass bills to change the laws, or whatever legal process that needs to be done to get this done. Se pa kriye di it's unfair.


Lè konstitisyon an va chanje, petet y'a gen espwa poze kandidati yo.

DPean

Post by DPean » Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:45 am

It seems that the Haitian constitution has only one article. People are rotting in jail without ever being allowed to see their natural judge. The Minustah, a foreign force is giving orders to our own National Police. And we are talking of double nationality. Our priorities are all skewed. Is it for real?

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Post by admin » Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:00 pm


[quote]People are rotting in jail without ever being allowed to see their natural judge.[/quote]
Some more prominent than others (Neptune, Privert, Annette Auguste, Gerard Jean-Juste ...), some younger than others [young kids from the street: the "san manman", the "koko rat"], U.S. deportees [not necessarily hardened criminals!], the political prisoners [those suspected rightly or WRONGLY of belonging to neighborhood gangs that supported the Lavalas government, at least in name, but often no more guilty of anything than having been "in the wrong place" (where they live, for instance) at the wrong time (which can be any hour of the day or night) ] ... I commend you for recalling that sad reality, as we need to remember it every single day. What is the underlying cause for this?

A fundamental lack of respect for the Law in Haiti.

[quote]The Minustah
, a foreign force is giving orders to our own National Police.[/quote]
I will not shed tears for the National Police per se, because in so many instances they have acted exactly the same as the old FRAPH/FADH and Papa Doc's Tonton Macoutes. But what you are referring to in a symbolic way is the current Occupation of Haiti by a foreign army, following the footprints of the American Marines and French Soldiers that set foot in Haiti to insure no bloody street revolution would take place after their governments' planned decapitation of the constitutional government of Haiti [this is not a judgment of how good or bad the Haitian government was at the time] to the cheers of a significant portion of the Haitian intellectual and financial elites. But what allowed this truly tragic development in Haiti on the year of our independence once-in-a-lifetime anniversary?

A fundamental lack of respect for the Law in Haiti.

Please recall
that just a few months ago, Dumarsais Simeus wrote a letter to U.S. President George Bush, urging him to send a new contingent of U.S. Marines to Haiti. In making this request, was he acting more like a concerned Haitian citizen (which he claims to be) or a concerned American citizen (which he claims to be) ? Your call! It's hard to tell. Perhaps he made the call as World Citizen (nationalitites be damned, a world without borders is where I, too, always yearned to belong). But these days, would a concerned World Citizen call upon George W. Bush to send the U.S. Marines anywhere, based on his unambiguous record of the past five years????? I wonder, if Simeus, SOMEHOW, became President of Haiti in February 2006, how long would he hesitate before calling on his old friend to send the U.S. Marines again, as he did just a few (3?) months ago. At the first sign of unrest, maybe? But you may argue, what's the qualitative difference between receiving orders from a world police force or receiving them from the U
.S. Marines... You may have a point there: when a Haitian kid is killed by the Haitian National Police his blood flows red, when a Haitian kid is killed by a Jordanian from MINUSTAH his blood flows red, when a Haitian kid is killed by a U.S. Marine his blood flows red, when he is killed by a Dominican his blood flows red... so what difference are we talking about... might as well bring on the Marines, right?

Another thought: if double nationality is good enough for the President of Haiti, wouldn't it be good for all the people he is supposed to lead? I wonder if George Bush would consider granting double nationality to ALL Haitians, yeah all 8 millions of them. Would simplify things, wouldn't it? Then the President of Haiti would not acquire a more privileged status than his subjects and George Bush would have a fresh supply of bodies to send to war in Iraq! Killing two birds with one stone...

By the way, I have heard that not only Dominicans will be printing the ballots for our internationa
l community mandated elections, but that they are also to " assist" our moribund CEP to forcefully bring about a timely outcome to that elections business... Can't say that I truly understand any of this. I have not followed that closely, so feel free to expand or correct those rumors or impressions.

But to go back to our turtles, what has brought about those rather stateless (not to say tasteless) considerations?

A fundamental lack of respect for the Law in Haiti.

I think pretty much everyone agrees on that point, but this is where they begin to diverge:

a) there is one camp of Haitian nationals saying: what the hell, the Constitution is dead already, Haiti is under foreign occupation, it's just as well to have someone as President who has been successful in the business world, regardless of acquired nationalities, the prohibiting articles of the constitution be damned because how "dead" can "dead" be?

For that matter, the new President of Haiti might also be a Dominic
an Republic citizen, a French citizen, a German citizen, whatever... Since Haiti is "a failed state", what matters is to bring in someone who has been successful at something in his life in any field, even if he has no experience whatsoever in government or public administration. We need someone with a multinational mentality (I have also heard some Haitians say that it it really important to know that the person is very rich, because that is to them an insurance policy that this new President would not attempt to become "rich" on the back of the Haitian people, since he is "rich" already!!!!) [Even though... there is absolutely no evidence that the 'multinational' mentality has ever stood for anything other than the rich getting richer, but that is a quite different topic.] The "double national" or "multinational" is seen as a potential Messiah (especially if he is rich and has been successful in business) who is assumed to be more efficient than uninationals could be [as they have an unenviable record of
failure]. So the discussion stops right there on "dead constitutional technicalities", with nary a concern about: the lack of public administration experience, the reliance on foreign armies to quell popular unrest in dangerously poor neighborhoods, the stand on releasing all political prisoners, etc.

I think that Henri Kissinger would have liked that. At the height of his popularity in the United States, he could easily have run for President! But that darn U.S. Constitution stopped him. To his credit however, I never heard any belly-aching from him about that.

But the U.S. is the U.S. and Haiti is Haiti. So let's go back once again to our turtles, and look at the opposing camp.

b) I am speaking of those who refuse to accept the notion that the Constitution of Haiti is dead. Astoundingly, this may even include George Bush in their ranks, since he famously said to the Press, the day after the decapitation of constitutional order in Haiti [premeditated, planned, financed, and suppo
rted by his own government] : "The Haitian Constitution is working." What better constitutional authority than George Bush, I have a feeling that Dumarsais Simeus would agree.

So the constitutional "die-hards" continue to object to the possible candidacy of "dual nationals". Dual by whose standards, I do not know... and if not dual, is one American when on U.S. soil and Haitian on Haitian soil... or better yet, is one American when traveling with a U.S. passport and Haitian when traveling with a Haitian passport... I wish someone would just lay out the protocol for me. Believe me, as Haitian as I feel based on the culture and education I received, I would be among the first to apply for all the world's nationalities, if allowed. Damn it, I hate restrictions too, and I am not even running for president of anything! (strike that, I have in fact wished to preside over my household, but my wife has long ago declared herself president for life.)

So it appears that now the constitutional die-hards
stand accused of standing only for one article (or two) of the Constitution (alive, dead, or "en veilleuse" !) Who is right?

I feel that we are somewhat mixing apples and oranges (nothing wrong with mixing those fruit, as in a white sangria, so perhaps I should say "adding apples to oranges"). Where is the evidence that one camp really cares more than the other about issues such as: the release of prisoners who are currently rotting in jail without being allowed due process or the fact that MINUSTAH is giving orders to the Haitian National Police? Which camp, if any, has displayed more sensitivity to those issues? To be absolutely honest with you, I have no freaking idea... and it probably does not matter!

Each issue needs to be debated on its own merits.

The real question here is whether we should make lemonade with real or artificial flavors. Or perhaps mixed flavors.

Your call, but regardless of your stand:

A) Only the guilty should rot in jail, and only when they ar
e found guilty in a court of law and condemned to rot in jail.

B) Kids do not belong in jails.

C) No one should be in jail, simply because he/she was identified as a likely Lavlas sympathizer. That is dead wrong.

D) Everyone, regardless of social status, is entitled to due process.

E) Self-determination, not George Bush's determination, not Chirac's determination, not the international community's determination, should be the ultimate political objective.

F) We ALL need to work together to increase the human development of Ayiti, damn our persistent political infighting!

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:01 am

[quote]I think that Henri Kissinger would have liked that. At the height of his popularity in the United States, he could easily have run for President! But that darn U.S. Constitution stopped him. To his credit however, I never heard any belly-aching from him about that.[/quote]

But, Guy, in all fairness, Kissinger's case would have been more "à propos" if you were referring to him wanting to become Germany's Chancellor instead of President of the USA!

[quote]there is one camp of Haitian nationals saying: what the hell, the Constitution is dead already, Haiti is under foreign occupation, it's just as well to have someone as President who has been successful in the business world, regardless of acquired nationalities, the prohibiting articles of the constitution be damned because how "dead" can "dead" be?[/quote]

The real reason is not "because how "dea
d" can "dead" be." It is because of the missed opportunity if a diaspora could have been The Messiah we all have been waiting after each political transition in power in Haiti. The damage to the already damaged constitution would have been seen as the lesser of two evils.

[quote]Please recall that just a few months ago, Dumarsais Simeus wrote a letter to U.S. President George Bush, urging him to send a new contingent of U.S. Marines to Haiti. In making this request, was he acting more like a concerned Haitian citizen (which he claims to be) or a concerned American citizen (which he claims to be) ? Your call! It's hard to tell.[/quote]

I really missed that fact in this whole debate. That action of Simeus is more a reflection of his personality than that of Haitian-Americans. His opponents could have got more mileage on this than the fratricide war they started by calling Haitians living in the diaspora "foreigners." Recall that Aristide got Clinton to bring th
e marines in Haiti to restore him to power. That action's purpose was to restore constitutional order in Haiti. I don't think it is so clear-cut some times when dealing with these issues. At the same time, I found the Aristide opposition, paying and lobbying the Republican power in the USA to undermine Aristide's administration and Haiti by financing the Convergence and other destabilizing actions - recall Jesse Helms - that led to the final blow to the constitution with Aristide removal and the April 4th Accord, in a much more negative light to me than the Aristide' use of the Marines to restore him to power and restore constituional order, and more negative than the violation of the articles of the constitutionon banning from higher office HAITIANS naturalized in a foreign country for survival needs. Again, the perception is different from both camps in terms which is worse. And on that, Guy, you and I agree.

DPean

Post by DPean » Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:15 am

Those who refuse to accept the notion that the Constitution of Haiti is dead are not living in reality. They are living in a dream world. The constitution is in fact dead. The show in Haiti is no being run by Haitians. The next president of Haiti better knows who his real boss will be. He will not be the Haitian people. He will do what his boss allows him to do. He will have to rely on foreign troops for his own protection.
The dual nationals, as we called them, are red blooded Haitians. They were born in Haiti and everything about them is Haitian. The reasons for changing one's citizenship are well known and I do not need to repeat them. Changing one's citizenship doesn't really change who you really are. Many countries, and for their benefits, do not put any restrictions on what their dual nationals can do in their country of origin. For example, you can be prime minister of Israel and still have an American passport. I believe that you
can be president of Greece even though you are naturalized to another country. Actually, one president of Greece in the 1980's had also American citizenship. From what I heard about him, he was not particularly pro-American because of that.
The restrictions put on the Haitian dual nationals have really selfish and self-serving motives. I don't think the majority of Haitians really care either way. The only ones who do and are dead set in treating the Haitian dual nationals as foreigners are those who belong to that privileged clique who have been running the country for the last 200 years.

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Post by admin » Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:28 pm

[quote]Those who refuse to accept the notion that the Constitution of Haiti is dead are not living in reality. They are living in a dream world. The constitution is in fact dead.[/quote]
Hi Dpean, I am afraid that you are confusing the constitution with the constitutional order. Those are two very different things. A constitution is dead only when another is voted to replace it. That is not something that is left to anybody's judgment. Not yours, not mine. If the constitution were truly dead, there would be no president in Haiti today, no prime minister, no ministerial cabinet, no supreme court, no judicial system, no government structures whatsoever because they are all defined by the constitution. Obviously what we have witnessed in Haiti is a breakdown of the constitutional order. We have a de facto government, but it is functioning to some extent. They are signing deals with f
oreign powers. They are preparing national elections. They could not do any of that, if the constitution was declared dead. No one in the fields of Law and Government, in Haiti, in the U.S. or the International Community, has gone so far as to declare that Haiti no longer has a constitution. Absolutely no one. In which way does it help any of us to try to advance this notion and on which authority?

We could say all day long "The Constitution is in fact dead," but without citing authoritative references from National and International Law, that is simply akin to running around screaming for all to hear: "The sky has fallen, the sky has fallen!" If Dumarsais Simeus became president of Haiti tomorrow, I'd bet you every last cent that he would be swearing (hypocritically perhaps) to withhold the Constitution of Haiti. He would never say: "Ha Ha! I don't have to take an oath, because we have no constitution. The one we had is long dead."

[quote]The show in Haiti is no bei
ng run by Haitians. The next president of Haiti better knows who his real boss will be. He will not be the Haitian people. He will do what his boss allows him to do. He will have to rely on foreign troops for his own protection. [/quote]
You're probably right! This is nothing new, however. You are merely suggesting that the relative control of the past will be replaced by absolute, total control in the future. But servility to the White House (because that's what we are really talking about) is no guarantee of stability at home. In fact, any Haitian president who receives all of his orders from Washington DC and does not pay any mind to the political determination of his own people is bound to run into serious trouble. And that is a guarantee.

[quote]The dual nationals, as we called them, are red blooded Haitians. They were born in H
aiti and everything about them is Haitian.[/quote]
Of course! Once Haitian, always Haitian. I would not be so crass as to say that Dumarsais Simeus is not Haitian. While I am myself a U.S. citizen, I still consider myself Haitian. That is not what is at issue here. When you play any game, you need to follow the rules of the game, until you officially change them. Everyone understands that when it comes to ANY ENDEAVOR, except the pursuit of the presidency in Haiti.

Also, we need to be careful about the term "dual national" applied to Haitian-Americans. We know for sure that Haiti currently does not recognize dual nationality. As far as I know, the U.S. does not recognize it either!! They do for some countries (like Ireland, I believe), but for the likes of Haitians??? We had better ask that question from the new U.S. ambassador. Anyone wants to give her a call?

As to Jean-Marie's hope for a Messiah that would justify overriding the established rules of the game, I can't
logically argue against that. You have to put a lot of faith in one man to think that he would be able to save Haiti, and no other. The people put that sort of faith in Aristide and he could not deliver. Why go down the same path again? I cannot argue against your hope, but I simply do not share it.

What I do hope however, is that sometime soon, all Haitians living abroad will have the right to vote, that they will be able to do so by casting absentee ballots or vote in designated places like consulates and embassies, etc.

[quote]Many countries, and for their benefits, do not put any restrictions on what their dual nationals can do in their country of origin. For example, you can be prime minister of Israel and still have an American passport. I believe that you can be president of Greece even though you are naturalized to another country. Actually, one president of Greece in the 1980's had also American citizenship. From what I heard about him, he was not particularly
pro-American because of that.[/quote]
Good points for amending the constitution, Pean. Unfortunately, the examples that you chose do not bear legally on Haiti, because the Israeli and Greek constitutions had provisions that recognized: a) dual nationality; b) the right of dual nationals to run for president of their country. God bless them! Should we amend our constitution to be more like theirs? That's the crux of your argument. They did not violate the rules of the game however, to achieve the desired results.

[quote]The restrictions put on the Haitian dual nationals have really selfish and self-serving motives.[/quote]
On the part of the framers of the constitution, I assume (?) Maybe, but I can't speak to their motives. Can you back that assertion?

[quote]I don't think the majority of Haitians really care either way.[/quote]
Oh, Haitians do care! One way or another. Most Haitians, in the diaspora, I
NCLUDING MYSELF, would like to assume dual nationality. I spend so much time worrying about what is in store for Haiti, I would love to be able to fully participate in the national life (I have forsaken running for any political office however, but I recognize that others may for the good of the country, when they are able to do so according to a constitutionally defined set of electoral rules!)

[quote]The only ones who do and are dead set in treating the Haitian dual nationals as foreigners are those who belong to that privileged clique who have been running the country for the last 200 years.[/quote]
Well, Pean, if we accept your premise, it follows that we must work to change the dreadful status quo. If that system has lasted for 200 years, simple improvisation will not do. We need a plan to implement your vision. Changing the rules for one person, by taking advantage of the current suspension of constitutional order in Haiti, does in no way insure that all natif-
natal Haitians will enjoy the same privileges. You would then have to fight for each one, one by one. We stand to win much more in the long run, by proceeding along a more patient and disciplined path.

Hasta la victoria siempre, amigo.

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