ARISTIDE, UN AN APRES

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Régis Debray et Véronique de Villepin-Albanel menacèrent JBA

Post by admin » Mon Feb 21, 2005 11:41 pm

[quote]M. Jean Bertrand Aristide, apparemment serein et détendu, maintient qu'il a été victime d'un «enlèvement» et, pour la première fois, révèle très explicitement qu'il aurait été menacé par deux émissaires français, dont il n'hésite par à donner les noms.

Ces personnes lui auraient rendu visite au palais national de Port-au-Prince, plusieurs semaines avant son départ. Leurs « menaces étaient claires, indique M. Jean-Bertrand Aristide : ou vous démissionnez, ou vous pouvez être abattu ! ». [/quote]

Aristide a clairement cité Régis Debray et Véronique de Villepin-Albanel comme les deux émissaires français qui l'auraient menacé, sans vergogne. Voyez:

http://www.hayti.net/tribune/audio_vide ... jba101.wmv

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Post by admin » Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:21 am

Dunord, I think that most Haitians would agree with you. The end of Aristide will not be written in glorious terms in our History books. That was not the way of Christophe and Dessalines, as you said. However, keep in mind that this is only a small piece of the puzzle. We have not been told the whole truth yet, neither by Aristide himself, and certainly not by his detractors.

I heard that Aristide was coming out with a book detailing the coup. What happened to that book? It's been a whole year... more than enough time for a small book to be written and get off the press, especially when the subject matter is so HOT. Perhaps, a deal was made for it not to come out (or some other explicit threat) ? I have no idea.

As far as things not adding up... do they ever? Did ALL the reasons Bush gave to attack Iraq add up to anything coherent and believable? Of cou
rse not! We are dealing here in the world of politics and diplomacy, where everything must be INTERPRETED. Make no mistake about that. However, keep an eye on the big picture, as "one tree cannot hide the whole forest" (as Aristide himself is fond to say). I do not see what happened as a coup against Jean-Bertrand Aristide, really. I saw it more as a coup against Haiti's sovereignty and the people of Haiti. Regardless of what Aristide did or did not do, there are guilty parties here. Don't lose track of that.

It's the electoral vote of millions of poor Haitians that was summarily discarded, placed in the shit hole, while Chirac was smiling and Bush proudly declared that "the Haitian Constitution is working". It's a small group of Haitians that have profited from the coup while a populist movement has been savagely repressed. Things were not right in Haiti before the fall of Aristide, not by a long shot. But, you know what... they have gotten immeasurably worse since the fall of Aristide, f
or the majority of Haitians.

And all of this was highly predictable, except to those who can afford rose colored glasses.

Guy


P.S. One thing you said, Dunord, that does not quite add up either, as far as I know: "knowing my family was safely out of the country". How many members of Aristide's family were out of the country at that point? I remember that his children were taken out of the country early, but does this qualify as "knowing my family was safely out of the country" ?

Anyway, man, I appreciate the points that you made, but all I can tell you is that we are far better off keeping our focus on the big picture.

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:56 pm

[quote] If anyone wants to change Haiti you must live there and get involved! If the diaspora would do something besides write editorials we wouldn't need the UN in this country right now.[/quote]

Dunord,

I tried hard to fully understand that statement about the diaspora role and those who can effect real change in Haiti, and I don't fully get it. In the first sentence, if what you say is right why don't those who live there fix the problem? If they don't, according to your statement, that means they don't want to get involved. I don't think that's what you want to say, i.e. there is bad will from Haitians now living in Haiti to change the stagnant and embarrassing way the country has been managed. Otherwise, how long would it take those living there and invoved to change Haiti? What does "get involved" mean? How many people need to get involved? How do they get involved in such a meaningful way
that can effect change in the country? We all know they have not been able to do it in the past 200 years. How many more years will be required? This is one perspective in analyzing your statement.

Another perspective of your statement is that the diaspora, which I would hope you provide your definition, does not do anything except write editorials and that their action would have avoided the presence of the UN in Haiti. What is it that the diaspora should have done and did not do? Also, isn't it contradictory when you say earlier one has to be living in Haiti and getting involved in other to effect any change and later that the diaspora, who do not live in Haiti, could have done something to effect change from where they live and did not do it? Since the diaspora does not live in Haiti, how can they effect any change, according to your statement? For the records, many members of the diaspora went back to Haiti after Jean-Claude left and when Aristide won the first term and after he was returned the
re. They cashed their saving accounts and left lucrative jobs to go back. When they got there, whether by their own failing or others, they were met with scorn and disdain and was treated as foreigners. The 1987 Constitution makes them officially foreigners in their native country. And, please spare me the nationality abandonment thing since they never gave up their nationality. They adopted a second one to survive in the adopted country. Guess what, they are all back now in their adopted countries without their savings account - wasted on Haiti - and starting over in entry level jobs, or something of the sort.

Dunord, Haiti's problem is that its people cannot get along. Forget about the rhetoric on the extreme sides of both dominant groups of the country. Their disagreement is their own downfall. There is a saying that "you can't love someone anymore than that someone loves himself or herself." People in the diaspora, besides those forced out by politics, realized that and were lucky enough that the
y were able to leave. How many people would have stayed if they were no barriers to leaving?

That foreigners are in Haiti telling Haitians how to live their lives is because of the same cause I just mentioned. That is, we can't get along. I can even suggest that all the ills of Haiti you can think of are rooted in this only cause. The foreigners in the country are like a judge in a divorce or a dispute. The parties cannot agree on a compromise, they ask a third person to make the decision for them. That third person, the judge, is the foreigners. From that standpoint, I totally agree with you. Don't blame the foreigners. We need to blame ourselves. But, I don't agree with you when you want to blame the diaspora's so-called inaction. That is totally against the prevailing spirit in Haiti and those writing the constitution to keep them inactive for political reasons. The attitude of Haitians living in Haiti towards those who left underscores the level of mediocrity within us, both inside and outsid
e Haiti. Yes, both you and I were responsible and incompetent to manage the country! I, because I used to live there and did not change anything, and you, because you are now living there and not changing anything.

Jean-Marie

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Post by admin » Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:42 am

Dunord, I have read all of your interventions on this forum, and I have enjoyed every one of them. More than that, I have actually learned from them. Whether we agree on everything is either irrelevant or impossible. The point is that you have honored this forum, like few living in Haiti have or can. For that, I thank you very much. Please keep on contributing, whenever we can steal your time.

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:06 am

Dunord, Jean-Marie and Jaf,

You all taught me a lot from your posts. Although, personnally, I don't think that I've contributed enough to my Homeland. I wish that I could do more.

Haiti needs his children to invest and get along... That is the truth. FIrst, we need to get rid of the UN or Minustah or whatever their name is or are. They do not (help) our country go forward...

Just look at this picture or facts, guys:
How much money is invested for UN personnel? A lot monthly, some people are making ten thousand US dollars. Their salary yearly is outrageous. Free home, a lot of expense money, free Women, free cars which they can park anywhere. The UNs jobs in Haiti is Party everywhere, room-serviced prostitutions, enjoying our Beaches 7 days a week etc. etc.

Now, tell me. Do you think the UN would want the actual situation to change??? This is a very big problem. I don't know when will it end?

Lajan pa gen
sant, yo te met sou vomisman chen, Aloufa ap konte lajan menm nan Blakawout.

What about, the Security services? They are making a lot of money when the insecurity level is High... Make me think of Iraq.

Mesye ze dam, se pa nan ti kras tenten non, ke Ayiti ye la. Avek konplisite on paket lot makak (Arab, Milat, Makout, Jandam, Sedo-Intelektyel boush mayas elatriye).

We have to think of something else, for, the Hitlerian countries like the USA, France and Canada would not help us. We need to get together against the Coup d'etat and a new Election.

Haiti has a Democratically elected President, love him or not. He needs to finish his mandate. It is about time, for us Haitians not get duped again by former children-killers (Anti-freeze lab) and sweatshop zenglendos...

L'union fait la Force
leonel

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:57 pm

[quote]...Haiti's problem is that its people cannot get along...[/quote]
And that's a major</B> key to understanding why it's been so difficult and almost impossible for the nation to really take off since 1804.

Several years ago, I made the decision to love and respect</B> every single haitian I meet either physically or by other means. I have come to the conclusion that wicked individuals and/or foreign powers willing to be vampires and suck up the very last drop of blood out of the haitian people have always existed and will always be around (since 1492, <I>nou sonje !</I>). Wicked haitians also enjoy making themselves available for this sinister game of self-destruction, dancing, jumping and seemingly enjoying themselves like lifeless puppets.

Who or what will take us out of that pit? Well, find a haitian today and treat him/her with love and respect. And if you suceed with just o
ne, try to extend it to two, five, fifty...Little by little, I hope, we can begin to look at ourselves eye to eye and begin to love ourselves for who we are. We are the children of those few brave men and women who brought human dignity back to the human race right here in this hemisphere - yes, for the first time since slavery was introduced to the american continent.

Until we can value each other's life and dignity, <I>dan pouri ap toujou jwenn fòs sou bannann mi</I>....


gelin

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:08 pm

Dunord,

The personal examples of action you gave me underscore the kind of solutions that can work in Hait and those who won't and have not done so. Although I hate to get into these conjectures publicly, but I will tell you what my personal opinion of the possible solutions of the problems of Haiti are.

The solution of the problems in Haiti will not come fron a government. Though, it can play a catalyst role in it. Hati's most popular sport is not soccer, but political analysis. Yet, all haitians, educated and not, look for the government to solve the country's problems. It has been like that forever. But, it always amazed me that with so many educated and smart Haitians in and outside the country, they continue to try and insist on the same failed and many times proven unsuccesfull solutions. That is: a good government will solve Haiti's problems. Yet, many times over, we tried the same solutions, changing the government, an
d our problems keep getting worse. What would it take for haitians to look elsewhere to solve the country's problems. Intelligent people suppose to know that you tried it once, you tried it twice and it failed in both cases, that it is time to "look outside the box" so to speak.

I believe that instead of trying to change the government, as a solution, we should instead try to change the people. By that, I mean, we should focus on changing the atttitudes of the people in Haiti instead of perennially looking for a perfect government. Can a government help in doing this? Certainly, since it has a lot of resources at its disposal, the tax dollars.

The bigger problem we have in Haiti is that the people believe thay don't have to do anything individually to fix the country. It is the government's. Nothing could be so further from the truth. It has everything to do with the people. I sincerely believe that if we can convince every haitian to do the best he or she can do in his or her area of exper
tise and apply the same thing in the personal life, the country will be improved by 100% over the way it is now. Allright, I can't support that statement, but it is a hunch. But, let's just dream. Let's just dream that every haitian decides she will do her job better from now on, whatever it is, and that he will keep his house, family, neighbors better than it did in the past, that it will eliminate wasted time and increase his productivity by 25%, just by eliminating wasted time and opportunity. Can you imagine the changes that would have brought to Haiti. Let's continue to dream that every time she, and I will use he to mean also her and interchangeably, faces a challenge, such as too much flooding on the streets when it rains, or the sweet potato harvest came less than expected because of indequate rain falls, and instead of just accepts it as a fait accompli, gets together with the neighbours or other interested parties, unite their forces in the spirit of finding a more efficeint solution and that it
will be better than doing it alone, can you imagine how this would have transformed the country? The reality is that we are operating in Haiti below our full potential. We don't take advantage of our forces as a group. We act only as individuals, which explain why we succeed alone in the US not as a group.

Because we continue to think that our problems can only be solved by the government, we have become paralyzed. The reality is that individuals grow the economy of a country, not the government. In the US, the government's role is to motivate the people to produce and grow the economy. In Haiti, the people wait and watch the government to do the same. You don't need to be a diaspora to do what Dunord did. Any haitian should be able to do it! But to think about making those kinds of changes, you must have been outside of Haiti to even contemplate it. You will know when Haiti has an effective government only when you see that government focus on motivating Haitians to do, instead of promising to do
itself. That will be signs of stabilizing the decline that has plagued Haiti as long as I know.

Jean-Marie

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Post by admin » Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:31 pm

Thanks, Dunord! I do have an assignment of tall order for you, which you may fulfill in a new thread in a different forum category. It's open ended, so you can begin it and update it at your convenience.

I don't know what year you went back to Cap-Haitien, but you have resided in that area for several years now. I was born in Cap-Haitien and grew up in Cap-Haitien and Dondon, until the early 70's. I have only visited infrequently since. What I would like to do, for myself and many others in my situation, is to bridge the Cap-Haitien that I knew in the 50's as a child, 60's and 70's as an adolescent and young adult, to the Cap-Haitien of the 90's and 00's, which I understand are two very different Cap-Haitiens (perhaps a core of it is still the same, but becoming ever more unrecognizable).

For example, in my Cap-Haitien, there were very few cars and never, never a traffic jam! In my Cap-Hait
ien, the streets were very clean and houses had only two stories, for the most part, unless they only had one. In my Cap-Haitien, there were two nightclubs: Feu Vert (Orch. Septentrional) and Club des Mélomanes (Orch. Tropicana). There were at first, for the longest time, two movie theaters: Eden Cine (owner, Anacréon) and Ciné La Gaieté (owner, Ascencio). Movie-going was king of entertainment in the city. In its heyday, Anacréon opened a second movie theater in La Fossette (a poorer neighborhood), called Jet Ciné. Ascensio had to follow suit and he also opened another movie theater, whose name escapes me at the moment. Imagine that: Four movie theaters, where movies were shown from 30 cents (6 pennies at Jet Ciné) to "2 pou 50" (two for 50 centimes or a dime) on Fridays and Saturdays "nan poulaye" (general seats in Eden Cine and La Gaieté) or 1 gourde (20 U.S. cents at the time) "nan rezève" (premium seats), and all the way to the highest priced tickets of 2 gdes (for those
premium seats for first showings on Sunday). My mother was quite liberal, so generally I had no problem seeing four different movies each week, two on Friday at Eden Ciné and two on Saturday at La Gaieté, in general seats for a total cost of 1gde. But I am spending too much time on movies, you all know my weakness, so let's move on. There were also limited numbers of restaurants, public squares, secondary schools, hotels, brothels, etc, etc. My Cap-Haitien was indeed a small city, even though it was full of treasures for the enterprising young men and women with lots of friends and plenty of time to spare (no telephones, no televisions, no computers, no video games, no electronic entertainment other than radios or the occasional jukebox). Of course, I could write about my Cap-Haitien a whole lot more and for every page that I would, Lemane Vaillant would add ten pages of his own. But that is not presently the object of my request.

What I
want to cover is the transformation of Cap-Haitien from what it was to what it is. From what it had to what it has. From the way it looked to the way it looks. Then and now: Its architecture, its landmarks, its institutions, its way of life.

I don't know how far you can go back (however many years you can, that will be great), but you can do it in small doses, and maybe other "du nord" 's will pick up until a mental bridge is erected that will help us traverse from the Cap-Haitien that was to the Cap-Haitien that is. In which ways has it gotten better and in which ways has it gotten worse?

I know that's an assignment of tall order, but really I am just asking that you provide some pieces of the puzzle for me.

Before you know it, some guy from Port-à-Piment du Sud will want to do the same.

Merci d'avance.



Guy

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