Haiti wake up! It's 2005; Time to go to the Poll!!

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Gelin_

Re: Haiti wake up! It's 2005; Time to go to the Poll!!

Post by Gelin_ » Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:19 pm

[quote]...Don't take us wrong, we like the Lavalas movement which is ”Power to the People, Ansanm ansanm nou fò”. But this Lavalas Party has been in power for more than a decade, and didn't do anything positive for the country. [/quote]
I heard that they built many more public schools in the country that what has been built for the last 100 years. Can you verify if that's true or not? If true, then, that would be something positive, I guess...

gelin

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:20 pm

Michel,

Everything else you said regarding our education system is ok, ie the other elements that need to be added to the package. I don't know if that claim is true or not, but I believe they said that in 10 years only they have built more public schools than all previous governments COMBINED over the last 100 years. Can you verify that?

gelin

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:36 am

MICHEL,

The literacy rate of Haiti is now 52.9 %, the literacy rate of Cuba is 97%.

Those are numbers of the CIA WORLDFACT BOOK.
Their numbers (statistics) are usually pretty reliable.

The Lavalas movement can be proud of this achievement, given that in the previous 190 years, the literacy rate never surpassed 25%.

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Tue Jan 04, 2005 4:43 am

Padel,
I understand your point. But, I also understand Michel's point.

He is right. I really think we need to stop this Band Aid mentality. Creating a lot of "Kin Prim Sec" Schools which look like "GAGE". We need to Improve the Education system in Haiti. We need the personel. We need to maintain that system...

Most of our ex Leaders had a short plan on anything. For instance, building a high way without having a permanent personel to maintain it. Without the flow of money for logistics etc...

Personally, the leaders needed to consult with other experts (perhaps from developed countries) just to know how to manage a COUNTRY. Managing a Church is different versus HAITI. Those little LEKOL RURAL are not enough. Haiti can have better, about two million of us are living in Developed Countries. We should know a little bit on how things are done??

Again, Michel, you are absolutely right in my opinion.

U.F.F. (l'un
ion fait la force)
leonel

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Tue Jan 04, 2005 8:44 am

I was pleasantly surprised by the 52.9% literacy rate. I still have some doubts on the number, because it is such a quantum leap in terms of the improvement from where we were. I always heard that the estimate for literacy, in the past, was about 25%. If in seven years, we have made that much progress in that area - I am here referring to literacy only - we should give credit when due, regardless of partisanship. I would certainly agree with Jonas.

It would be nice to have another source or study to confirm this literacy number. What happened to that bureau of statistics that used to be in the Bicentenaire Park area? Assuming the literacy number is right, this would be no small feat. I don't want to get excited about this, but I wonder what the contribution of education in kreyol has to do with it. After all, this new tool, education in kreyol, is not that old.

I agree with Padel that we should not just throw away numbers like th
at just to support our position. I am referring to Michel's statements. At our level, it is a waste of time to have a discussion when the underlying facts in the discussion are not verified or are totally wrong. It would have changed the whole discussion if the real facts were known. So, please guys/gals, verify your facts before we get excited into a discussion. This way we can have a serious discussion and we all learn from it.

Jean-Marie

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:48 am

My point was simple. If the Lavalas party built more public schools in the country that all previous governments combined over the last 100 years, then that's something very positive. If if they did something very positive in the area of public education, then Michel has to take back his statement that they did nothing positive for the country over the last 10 years. Or at least Michel has to review and modifiy his statement to include the efforts of the Lavalas party (or movement) in the area of education. Also, to improve the literacy rate of any country, one has to start with building public schools....that's just the way it goes. It's up to you Michel.

kaka poul pa bè...

gelin

Gelin_

Re: Haiti wake up! It's 2005; Time to go to the Poll!!

Post by Gelin_ » Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:17 pm

Michel,

Here is exactly what you have to either take back entirely or at least modify, considering of what has been accomplished in the area of public education and literacy:

[quote]...Don't take us wrong, we like the Lavalas movement which is ”Power to the People, Ansanm ansanm nou fò”. But this Lavalas Party has been in power for more than a decade, and didn't do anything positive for the country</B>.[/quote]

gelin

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Tue Jan 04, 2005 2:44 pm

Gelin,

I also want to add, despite the various spins one can put on it, that had it not been for the forced exile of Aristide, the Lavalas party would have brought us also democracy, as imperfect as it was. What I mean is: if Aristide was able to finish his term and a peaceful transfer of power took place after his term, we would have logged three peaceful transfers of power (Preval, Aristide, his successor) and started a tradition of democracy in Haiti. But, I believe the opponents of his party would find a way to blame him for the failure of that democratic debut in an effort to justify their forced ouster of him.

By the way, for those who start labeling me already, I am not for or against the Lavalas party, or any particular party in Haiti, although I am for democracy there, regardless of who is in power. I can hardly remember the name of more than one or two of those parties, including Lavalas. I just want Haiti to make progre
ss and prosper. I realize that may be an oxymoron for some! But, yes, there are Haitians, including those in the diaspora, who want no part in that self-destructive partisan mess there.

Jean-Marie

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Tue Jan 04, 2005 3:37 pm

[quote]...A peaceful Haiti is a win for all of us...[/quote]
Well, that's actually not true at all. A troubled and failed Haiti is certainly bad for most, but it's at the same time good for some. That's the way it is in life: <I>Tout sa k pa bon pou youn, li bon pou yon lòt...</I>

gelin

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Tue Jan 04, 2005 5:20 pm

[quote]...Gelin, I understand your point, but I choose to be more optimistic and agree with Padel. A better Haiti is good for all us, even though there are some who do not want that to happen. In the last analysis, they also will win...[/quote]
Serge, I am optimistic also. But let's look at the reality of the country itself. It's not by any chance that Haiti's history has been so tormented. In the midst of all this chaos, there must be some elements who benefit from the disorder (which by the way is actually a different kind of order). It's only a fact of life that <I>tout sa k pa bon pou youn OBLIJE bon pou on lòt</I>. A better and peaceful Haiti will NEVER be good for everybody. There will always be people wanting to change the order of things to their own benefit, regardless of the apparent disorder caused by their preferred order...

gelin

Martha
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:42 pm

Post by Martha » Tue Jan 04, 2005 11:21 pm

Marilyn's example of the continual dragging down of whoever is on top in Haitian political (and economic?) life reminds me of the graphic explanation of the same phenomenon shown to a group of my students by a Haitian friend of mine: He lined them up facing each other then named one of the students from one of the lines as the "leader." He then instructed the leader to charge into the other group, followed by the other students in his/her line. Then he named a student in the other group "leader" and gave the same instructions to that side. A couple of repetitions of this exercise clearly demonstrated his understanding of politics in Haiti.

And yet--and this is a paradox which has haunted me for a long time--I have often read about the wonderful communitarian traditions in Haiti--konbits, sharing within a lakou, etc. Why does this spirit, which is apparently quite an important
part of Haitian culture, not extend to the political arena?

Martha

T-dodo

Post by T-dodo » Wed Jan 05, 2005 1:13 pm

I seemed to have concluded that all that was to be analyzed in the last coup against Aristide was analyzed. I am delighted to read all these new perspectives, particularly Marilyn's detailed “limb venture,” and of course Jaf's historic and ethnocentric perspective, just to name these two. Let me add my perspective on it which explains some of my positions on Aristide's political skills on previous posts in this forum.

[quote]Aristide came to crystallize the aspirations of the many poor in Haiti. In some areas he partially succeeded; in other areas, he failed. But right from the beginning, his Govt. was set up to fail, because the powers that be considered such a movement in Haiti as a threat to too many powerful interests in Haiti and beyond. Therefore, Aristide had to be stopped at all costs. Unfortunately, he made a number of mistakes which allowed those powerful forces to hide behind those mistakes to vili
fy him.[/quote]

Kanmarad Serge is partially right. I believe Aristide and democracy in Haiti would have survived, has he been a more skillful politician and not made two fatal errors. One, he confused who his enemies were. Two, he underestimated his enemies' powers. It is a no-no for a politician. Because of that, I have taken emotional and enflamed position against him, for he missed a historic opportunity.

The first error culminated in the second term. When he was deposed by the military brass in the first coup, Aristide identified his enemies with the military. That was a big mistake because the military was just the weapons used by his real enemy, the elite or the upper class in Haiti who used the military to do its dirty job, like Marilyn said earlier. Since Aristide failed to fully understand the role of the army in his first coup, he naively concluded, in my opinion, that by eliminating the military, he solved his problems of coup. We all know now that the formal absence of th
e military did not insulate him from a coup against his government in his second term.

The second error in my opinion is that Aristide also naively believed that the power of the masses was sufficient to balance that of his enemies. With the financial resources at the disposal of the elite, the masses were no match for them. When the elite in Haiti started flexing its muscles, beginning with the formation of the Convergence and the laughing nomination of a parallel president, Gourgue, Aristide chose another laughing strategy, which was to get over 90% representation of his party in the two chambers It is laughing because by law all he needed was 51%. The elite used that mistake, the illegitimate elections of members of his party, as weapons against him so effectively that it justifies actions that led to his downfall. In addition to that, he tried to solidify his base, although by that time he already lost some of its coalition. Because of the foregoing, the assurance of the power of his base, he fail
ed at the beginning to try to meet the elite halfway by reducing the threats to their financial interests. Has he fully understood that the elite could maneuver his ouster; he would have tried to appease them by negotiating with them in good faith and still making progress on the mandate of his constituencies. That over reliance on the power of his constituencies by Aristide was a fatal mistake.

For those two reasons, which are purely political, Aristide was inept at fulfilling the dreams of his constituencies and perhaps taking his rightful place in history. I realized you guys tried to explain the origins of the forces against his success. What I tried to do here is explaining the process that makes his failure and also would have made his success possible.

Jean-Marie

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Post by admin » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:39 am

As Michel Nau would say:

Haiti wake up! It's 2006; Time to go to the Poll!!

Michel Nau_

Post by Michel Nau_ » Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:26 pm

2005!! What a year it was indeed!!
I went back and read the postings of this debate and God It was a good one.
Thanks for the memory! Guy, Marilyn, Jafrikayti, Serge Bellegarde, Gelin, Padel, Jonas, Leonel Jean Baptiste, JMFlorestal, JGPalmis, Martha and all the others who were just watching and cheering us up.

Welcome to 2006 and join the debates. Your thoughts about your beloved country Haiti count, bring your friends and let's do it again!!

Thanks

Michel

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