On prayer days for Haiti

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Gelin_

Re: On prayer days for Haiti

Post by Gelin_ » Thu Aug 18, 2005 1:42 pm

[quote]...As Blacks, we are known to be more spiritual than the Europeans who had introduced us to this version of Christianity or God. I think we really need to look at how we have been praying for over 5 centuries since we were introduced to Christianity...[/quote]
Here is how Jesus talked to those who believed in him:

<I><U>Be always on the watch, and pray</U> that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man</I>. - Luke 21:36.

Most praying haitians have been just praying. And they act surprised when the old snake sneaks among them and bites with his deadly venom. We can pray all we want and it's not going to help until we learn to be always on the watch - as the Master said.

If you are praying about a country, you need to be on the watch about the laws of that country. A country w
ithout law is just a space with a lot of people in it. Then, the whole system will fall under Darwin's "survival of the fittest" rule.

gelin

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:01 am

Nekita wrote:
[quote]Let's plan for a windows reunion next year . What do people think?
[/quote]

I completely agree with you. What don't we make it for February 7th???

We can pick a place in NY or Boston or Florida (warmer weather)...

Besides Guy, the only person I can picture is JAF (Lafimen). I would like to meet my siblings. Hey Widy, you are part of the Family too. You welcome to come to US...

Anyway, going back to the subject discussed above, I don't get involved. There is no Scientific evidence for the existence of anyone. It is only based on Faith.

Ala traka Papa! Blan yo finn banou Relijion Malatchong yo an. Epi pandan setan, yap plen pOch yo kOb.

Remind me of this song:
Satan konprann mwen tap dOmi, se prye m tap prye.

That is what we are doing: Prye, tann la mann di sel. Car Dieu a tant aime le monde qu'il a donne son Fils Unique afin que qui croit en
lui soit sauve...This is the same way that: Duvalier a tant aime Haiti, il l'a aussi donne son Fils Unique... (Pure PRopaganda).

Louons donc grace a la vie!

leonel

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:03 am

[quote]...Neither the ethnocentric superstitions called Christianity, Islam or Judaism will get us out of this quagmire. Haitians need to stop feeding their children the myths of other peoples. Instead we need to have them know the true path followed by THEIR OWN ancestors to get us where we are today...[/quote]
It seems to me that you are advocating jumping from one ethnocentric (euro-) superstition to another (afro-) ethnocentric superstition. I may be wrong, but I think differently.

If you look at the stable and prosperous societies of the world you'll see that one thing, only one thing, keeps them the way the are and have been for some time: they know and respect their own laws. That's all we need in Haiti. It does not matter if the majority of the population is religious or not. What matters is that people are educated and do their best to know and respect the law of their land - for the comm
on good.

gelin

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:08 am

[quote]...Anyway, going back to the subject discussed above, I don't get involved. There is no Scientific evidence for the existence of anyone. It is only based on Faith...[/quote]
Hey nèg lakay:

allow me to add something to your statement:...there is no scientific evidence for the existence <U>or non-existence</U> of anyone...Science starts with observation, and God cannot be observed in a test tube.

gelin

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:13 am

[quote]This is not the first time I hear Blacks claim to be more spiritual than Europeans. If it is so why do we get punked in our own game?...[/quote]
Hi Bouli: really there is no evidence - that I know of - that blacks are more spiritual than europeans. As to your question regarding the possible cause of our collective sufferings, it cannot be found in Biblical Christianity but rather in how this religion (like it's possible for anything else) has been manipulated historically for that purpose.

gelin

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Post by admin » Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:58 am

[quote]It seems to me that you are advocating jumping from one ethnocentric (euro-) superstition to another (afro-) ethnocentric superstition. I may be wrong, but I think differently.[/quote]
Gelin says something here that has occurred to me many times, not just when reading Jafrikayiti but also others on this forum. So I am interested to see their replies on this one.

[quote]If you look at the stable and prosperous societies of the world you'll see that one thing, only one thing, keeps them the way the are and have been for some time: they know and respect their own laws. That's all we need in Haiti. It does not matter if the majority of the population is religious or not. What matters is that people are educated and do their best to know and respect the law of their land - for the common good. [/quote]
I think that there is a great element of truth em
bedded in what Gelin stated above, though it's only partially accurate. It's not only the knowledge and respect of laws that has favored the creation of wealth in stable and prosperous societies. While I second Gelin in his advocacy for a state of Law, the historical truth must take into account the fact that many of those societies that are perceived to be stable and prosperous have gotten so through the plunder of resources of countries deemed underdeveloped, previously or currently known as the Third World. Historically, we are talking about the organized theft of TRILLIONS of dollars. So, truly, what Gelin wrote is only idealistic, unless he considers international thievery and thuggery to be embedded in the spirit of the laws of the stable and prosperous countries that their corporate citizens and political/military leaders have followed throughout the ages and in modern history in particular.

However, for Haiti to become a State that respects its own laws, is the
very best that we could wish right now, in order to have a hopeful start back at square one in our quest for development.

[quote]What make George W. Bush such an enigma and such a danger to the world is that, yes, he believes. Yes, he prays. Yes, he sings hymns. Yes, he reads his Bible. And then he lies through his teeth! He deceives! He covers up the wrongdoing of his closest friends. He lays the tax burden on the poor, making their lives a living hell. He rewards the pharmaceuticals and oil companies and makes the obtaining of medicines and heating oil and gasoline by the poor almost impossible. Etc. Knowing full well the words and policies of Jesus with regard to the poor.

Subscribing to a system of rules of the road and then keeping those rules is what sustains any society, whether it be of Animists in Congo or Muslims in Afghanistan or Jews in Brooklyn or Christians in Texas.[/quote]
Oh Marilyn! Your words are dangerous... You may well become the [b:cb97
0cda1a]Cindy Sheehan of Ann Pale.

I consider these words, allow me to repeat them, to be among the best observations that I have ever seen on this forum:

What make George W. Bush such an enigma and such a danger to the world is that, yes, he believes. Yes, he prays. Yes, he sings hymns. Yes, he reads his Bible. And then he lies through his teeth! He deceives! He covers up the wrongdoing of his closest friends. He lays the tax burden on the poor, making their lives a living hell. He rewards the pharmaceuticals and oil companies and makes the obtaining of medicines and heating oil and gasoline by the poor almost impossible. Etc. Knowing full well the words and policies of Jesus with regard to the poor.

If only the rest of the Nation could see the truth as you see it, Marilyn. The U.S. would perhaps stop being as despised as it is today throughout the world. But as long as they worship power above all moral and humane
considerations, we will continue to suffer from the policies of these so-called Christians.

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:38 pm

[quote]...Guess what I found in Biblical Christianity a second time for you? Contrary to what you've hoped for, this is, what God instructed to Moses at Mont Sinai, Law of the land to be stolen...[/quote]
You made 2 mistakes here, Bouli:

1- what you presented is not biblical christianity but biblical judaism. The two are different.

2- you did not read the entire chapter to realise that every 7th year and every 50th year, all slaves had te be freed and all debts cancelled so that people could have a chance to start over again with their lives.

I don't want to reduce this into just an exchange of bible verses, bu regarding biblical christianity here is what the master said as clearly as he could:

[quote]He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, <U>'Love your neighbor as your
self.'</U> - Luke 10:27.[/quote]

And he went one step further:

[quote]So in everything, do to others <U>what</U> you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. - Mat 7:12.[/quote]

Because this record is available for all to see and examine, it's is relatively easy to compare different forms/versions of christianity with the biblical one, the only good one, the original one. That's what I mean when I use this term.

gelin

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:52 pm

[quote]...the historical truth must take into account the fact that many of those societies that are perceived to be stable and prosperous have gotten so through the plunder of resources of countries deemed underdeveloped, previously or currently known as the Third World...[/quote]
Historically true, and I fall back on that old saying: " si kalfou pa bay, simityè paka pran ". In addition, it's entire possible to find stable and prosperous societies that have not practiced this kind of panzou. Internally, the respect of the law of the land is the only thing that will guarantee peace, success and prosperity - especially for a place like Haiti that stands as a bannannmi for a lot of danpouri.

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Post by admin » Mon Aug 22, 2005 8:34 am

[quote][quote]...the historical truth must take into account the fact that many of those societies that are perceived to be stable and prosperous have gotten so through the plunder of resources of countries deemed underdeveloped, previously or currently known as the Third World...[/quote]
Historically true, and I fall back on that old saying: " si kalfou pa bay, simityè paka pran ".[/quote]

Gelin, you say:
"Si kalfou pa bay, simityè paka pran"

How different is this from:
a) Sòt ki bay, enbesil ki pa pran

b) The rape victim is responsible for her misfortune. After all, why was she wearing a mini-skirt?

I know this sounds harsh, Gelin, and that all you are trying to do is to extoll the benefits of respecting the laws of one's country (though one should be conscious that at times, laws must be broken when they are patently unfair and prejudicial to a broa
d segment of society). Privileged Haitians have never been known for respecting Haitian Law, and that is the greatest handicap to political stability in Haiti, hence to an environment that is conducive to investments. I definitely stand with you on that point. However, there are other factors that create wealth in this world other than a strict obedience to the laws. Plunder is the biggest of them. How have the richest European countries become so??? [And of course, we can draw circles closer to home.]

[quote]it's entire possible to find stable and prosperous societies that have not practiced this kind of panzou.[/quote]
Maybe. But I would like us to deal with concrete examples that we can all learn from. And although for every example you could come up with, I could produce a counter-example, I promise not to play the devil's advocate. The point that I am making here is that for a society to become prosperous, it must not only le
arn to respect its laws, it must also be whole: one with its territory, its people, its physical resources, and a clear vision of its place in the world.

A state of laws, yes! But a state of laws, even a strict police state, without intelligent and visionary leadership, and a common identity, and a bond between all of her people, will not even hold a nation together. Let alone a prosperous one.

Even the laws supposedly given by the Biblical God to the Jewish people were made to be broken, in as much as they condoned human slavery. But certainly, ordinary men put very human-like words in the mouth of God, and then other men revered them because they came from the mouth of God.

"Loving thy neighbor like thyself" and "Do unto others..." were not foreign to human nature before the arrival of Christ, though he expressly incorporated those principles in his philosophy of Love. I feel certain that well before Christ, there must have been some human beings (among the chosen people) who saw th
e injustice embedded in the laws falsely attributed to God, and rejected the total exploitation of other human beings even if they were born in neighboring lands. In that they did not follow what you call the old covenant, but they submitted to an ethical sense that must come from "a higher authority".

Don't ask me for their names. I do not know. They might as well have been called Gelin or Guy, but I feel certain that they existed. Then and Now.

You can never justify the unjust just because it has been codified in a law. Whether that law supposedly came from God or not. If you believe that God is Love and Justice, then you are forced to reject many of the supposedly divine teachings of the Bible, irrespective of time.

Time is just a dimension of nature. There is no time without matter or without movement, because something must necessarily mark time, if it at all exists. Perhaps Nature always was. Perhaps Good and Evil (Le bien et Le mal) always were, in perfect duality (or one
defining the other by the negation of self). But if God (whose nature is our neverending quest to grasp) created Nature (including matter, motion, time, life, consciousness, and values), then God could not be trapped to subjecting her divine nature in the formulation of unjust temporal laws. That is a point of incongruity that I could never accept because it diminishes God. I do believe that if there is a God, then our sense of Justice and Love must have come from her divine nature and that it must transcend all time, which after all is just another dimension of nature (which God transcends).

Covenants and constitutions work for human beings, to guarantee some stability, but we should not revere them as though they were divine, as they are not. Of course, that is where religions come in. They make those laws in secret chambers and later appropriate them to God (and His Holy Spirit). And who then dares sin against the Holy Spirit? Who dares challenge the Law of God, as given to Man, according to M
an?

I only adhere to one principle: if God exists, he must have always been infinite justice, time immaterial.

Anacaona_

Post by Anacaona_ » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:03 am

Nekita Wrote:
[quote]Paul was a jew. Paul returned the slave Philemon to his master. It's a very short and intriguing story. Read it.
[/quote]
At first I did not want to say anything about it because I recall Paul returning a slave to his master. Then, this morning, I read the thread again, then something hits me from your posting and I decided to check the story.

I read the story, but never find where Philemon was a slave. Instead, he was a slave master and his slave Onesimus run away. Then, Onesimus met Paul and he became Christian. Paul decided to send him back to Philemon not as a slave but as a dear brother. Philemon 1:10-17.

Anacaona!

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:33 am

A lot of hard questions to which I may not have the right answer, but let me start with Bouli.

Judaism came into existence through Moses, and that's why we always talk about the Law of Moses. Christianity, or the body of doctrines and teachings centered around Christ, was created by Jesus-Christ, obviously. Again, the two are not identical although related. And here how Jesus established the difference from the start: " You have heard that it was said to the people long ago....But I tell you...."

It's a major mistake by many theologians and preachers to go dig stuff in Judaism and try to apply them in the christian context. It happens frequently in and oustide the church.

Now, to go back to your question about Leviticus 25:44-46,

<I>" 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of t
heir clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.</I>

If you do a study on slavery in the Old Testament, one question would probably come to your mind: why would the God who saved the children of Israel from 400 years of slavery in Egypt allow them to have slaves of their own?

Could we look into that?

gelin

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:43 am

[quote]Nekita Wrote:
[quote]Paul was a jew. Paul returned the slave Philemon to his master. It's a very short and intriguing story. Read it.
[/quote]
At first I did not want to say anything about it because I recall Paul returning a slave to his master. Then, this morning, I read the thread again, then something hits me from your posting and I decided to check the story.

I read the story, but never find where Philemon was a slave. Instead, he was a slave master and his slave Onesimus run away. Then, Onesimus met Paul and he became Christian. Paul decided to send him back to Philemon not as a slave but as a dear brother. Philemon 1:10-17.

Anacaona![/quote]

Thanks Anacaona! Well said. Let's look at the context here:

[quote]...Therefore, although in Christ I could be bold and order you to do what you ought to do</B>, yet I appeal to you
on the basis of love. I then, as Paul—an old man and now also a prisoner of Christ Jesus— I appeal to you for my son Onesimus, who became</B> my son while I was in chains. Formerly he was useless to you, but now he has become useful both to you and to me...[/quote]

Here is the thing:

1-believers in the Old Testament were allowed to have slaves.

2-in the New Testament, slaves who became believers were instructed to obey their masters.

These two biblical facts are seen as a justification of slavery and have been used by many to support that system. Therefore, both the Bible and the God it proclaims must be rejected in the name of justice. Again, I may be wrong but I see it differently.

gelin

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:48 am

[quote]...Gelin, you say: "Si kalfou pa bay, simityè paka pran"

How different is this from:
a) Sòt ki bay, enbesil ki pa pran

b) The rape victim is responsible for her misfortune. After all, why was she wearing a mini-skirt? [/quote]
M pa pale de pwovikasyon non. M vle di ke toujou gen yen e ap toujou gen yen simityè pou pran, e ke se veye sèlman pou on nonm veye kò w. I never once implied that the victim should be held responsible for her misfortune. All I am saying is that the danger of anarchy is there and real (for any society), and only good measures can prevent it.

[quote]...Privileged Haitians have never been known for respecting Haitian Law, and that is the greatest handicap to political stability in Haiti, hence to an environment that is conducive to investments.[/quote]
True, and why do underprivileges haitians enjoy following them so easily in calling for anarc
hy? Unknowingly perhaps?

[quote]...there are other factors that create wealth in this world other than a strict obedience to the laws. Plunder is the biggest of them. How have the richest European countries become so???[/quote]
The gold stolen from the Indians in the new world can still be found the cathedrals of europe where God is said to be worshiped.

[quote]The point that I am making here is that for a society to become prosperous, it must not only learn to respect its laws, it must also be whole: one with its territory, its people, its physical resources, and a clear vision of its place in the world.[/quote]
And you start by defining who you are and your purpose, and that's done in your constitution - manman lwa peyi a.

[quote]I do believe that if there is a God, then our sense of Justice and Love must have come from her divine nature and that it must transcend all time, which after all is just another dimension of natur
e (which God transcends).[/quote]
I agree. But don't you think that this God would also be infinitely wise, way beyond our ability to understand his ways? If that's true, then the only thing we could surely offer him is just our faith in his love, power, and wisdom. Are we going somewhere...:-)?

gelin

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:57 am

[quote]...I understand why some of those who profitted from this strategy continue to protect the legacy but, what is in it for you or I?[/quote]
The true message of Jesus-Christ preceded the colonial gospel that many have propagated with their bible in one hand and their sword or riffle in the other. The message of Jesus-Christ is a very good one, the best around in my judgement. The difficulty of many is to distinguish the good from the bad, the bad wolf from the sheep. And there is a reason for that.

gelin

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Thu Aug 25, 2005 10:39 am

[quote]...If one searches a bit further into Palestinian's History, one would know the 400 years of slavery in Egypt wasn't the last ordeal of the Israelites.[/quote]
True. Palestine is and has always been a very hot place.

[quote]Based on what we learn from our Christians bibles in Leviticus 25:44-46, some Israelites were also slaves on the promise land...[/quote]
Yes, there were some Israelites who also BECAME slaves in their own land. Here is one reason:

<I>" 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you</B>, do not make him work as a slave. (v.39).</I>

Elsewhere, in Deut 15:12-15,

<I>" If a fellow Hebrew, a man or a woman, sells himself to you and serves you six years</B>, in the seventh year you must let him go free. And when you release him, do not send him away empty-handed. Supply him liberally from your flock, your t
hreshing floor and your winepress. Give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today. "</I>

It was mostly an economic deal, and slavery or bondage was not based on race, and was also temporary. It reminds me of "les engagés ou 36 mois" de St Domingue.

gelin

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