Are Haitian people divided by religion?

Post Reply
Gelin_

Are Haitians divided by religion?

Post by Gelin_ » Thu Feb 10, 2005 1:14 pm

Just a couple of points from this provocative text:
The nature of genocide, racial and personal accountability

[quote]...The cruelties we've visited upon each other sometimes make me think we're the most bloodthirsty people. A recent example: The child soldiers in Sierra Leone and Liberia who are recruited by "blood diamond" merchants to chop off limbs, ears and noses to intimidate the locals.[/quote]
Sometimes I wonder why it can be so easy for us to kill each other just over an argument or a simple disagreement about things that are not worth a human life. How did we become happy to self-destroy...?

[quote]...Across the Atlantic, the mixture of religion, color lines and heritage made for a terrible concoction in Haiti. To this day, Haitians have yet to find peace.[/quote]
I know tha
t heritage (from colonial times) and color lines have played and continue to play a very big role in Haiti's current situation and ongoing crisis. But I am not sure that religion itself has been as important in putting and keeping the country down for so long. I suspect there may be some information I don't have, so I would like to invite those of you who know to bring some light for me on that...


gelin

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:16 pm

Gelin,

See if you can obtain CARL DENIS's book, in which he claimed that there are two Haitis.

One Haiti that is Christian and speak French and another Haiti Vodouist and speaking Creole.

These theories don't make any sense, but this is what some people think.

And in his book, Denis reserves all kinds of (bad) epithets to the Haiti which professeses Vodou and speaks Creole exclusively.

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:19 am

Jonas,

Evidently there are 2 Haitis as we all know it, but religion (namely "christianity" and Vodou) is not the factor that separates them. It's pure nonsense, not to say ignorance. We have christians and vodou adepts among both the poor and the rich people in the country. Therefore religion in and of itself cannot be the determining factor.


gelin

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:03 am

[quote]We have christians and vodou adepts among both the poor and the rich people in the country.[/quote]
Indeniably true, but if you ask some of the poor people and the great majority of these "rich people" if they are vodou practitionners, what do you think the answer would be?

It's a rethorical question because you know the answer. Why is that?

There is certainly exception to any rule, but why is it that in general a Brazilian (rich or poor) practices his African religion without any complex, while we Haitians are ashamed of this rich tradition?

I remember, reading an interview given by the great (if not the greatest) Brazilian writer JORGE AMADO.

In this interview, AMADO, a former communist and at that time an "oba" in the Candomble religion, was asked how he could reconcile being an atheist and the beliefs of Candomble. Amado answered that one could n
ot be a Brazilian and not belong to the CANDOMBLE or LUCUMI traditions. This is at the basis of the Brazilian character and considering himself most and foremost a Brazilian, this is why he immersed himself in the tradition.

Gelin, there has been a war against the tradition in Haiti. Persecution is the right word, because it's only one way.

It is time for it to stop.

No more "campagne anti-superstitieuse". It is time for our people to follow theirs traditions OPENLY, without any feeling of culpability.

And for ignoramuses like CARL DENIS, I would tell them "ALLEZ AU DIABLE", if he existed!

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:19 pm

Jonas,

From a biblical standpoint, some of the most sincere and loving christians I know are among the poor believers of the countryside, the <I>peyi andeyò</I> as they say.

[quote]...but why is it that in general a Brazilian (rich or poor) practices his African religion without any complex, while we Haitians are ashamed of this rich tradition?[/quote]
I don't quite agree with that line. Haitians are not ashamed of vodou as you say. For some haitians this may be true, but the great majority of those who practice vodou do so openly. At least that's what I know from the many "peristils" and "hounfò" I used to visit. It's the same for all those houngans and mambos. They are not ashamed of it and have never been....

[quote]... Amado answered that one could not be a Brazilian and not belong to the CANDOMBLE or LUCUMI traditions. This is at the basis of the Brazilian character and con
sidering himself most and foremost a Brazilian, this is why he immersed himself in the tradition.[/quote]
Well, this may be true for Brasil but not for Haiti. I am 100% haitian and am very proud of my african ancestry and heritage, BUT BUT BUT I do not believe in vodou and do not practice it.

[quote]Gelin, there has been a war against the tradition in Haiti. Persecution is the right word, because it's only one way.[/quote]
You are right about that because it's historically true.....you remember the <I>rejete</I> crusades...?

[quote]...It is time for our people to follow theirs traditions OPENLY, without any feeling of culpability.[/quote]
As I said earlier, those who choose to believe in Simbie ou Dambala have been doing it OPENLY. How many hounfò have you visited? I have been to some and have in the past partcipated in several vodou ceremonies.

As I see it, Haiti is not really divided by religion. That's a smoke screeee
eeeeeeeeeeeeen....


gelin

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:41 pm

[quote]Haiti is not really divided by religion[/quote]

On one hand you refer to the "rejete crusades" and the other you infer that Haiti is not divided by religion.

What provoked these crusades or the "campagnes anti-superstitieuses" as "they" called them?

Is it this "bovarysm" as mentioned by Price Mars? This hypocrisy?

It doesn't matter, how many vodou ceremonies I have witnessed while growing up; in my adulthood, I have learned about the "tradition" and continue to learn about it.

You and I don't have to be practicing vodouists to know how important this tradition is.

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:06 pm

Gelin,
See what's possible in a "serious country" where most of the veils have been lifted, where people have the freedom of their religious expressions thus permitting important researches.

[quote]FERNANDO ORTIZ AFRICAN CULTURAL CENTER
VIII INTERNATIONAL WORKSHOP ON AFRICANISTS IN THE CARIBBEAN "ORTIZ-LACHATANERE"
Dedicated to the culture of the Yoruba
April 5th-April 9th 2005
Santiago de Cuba

Fernando Ortiz African Cultural Center, Romulo Lachatenere Afro Caribbean Chair of studies, the Unesco Afro-Ibero American Chair of Studies of the University of Alcala, Heredia Theatre, University of Oriente Applied Linguistics Center as part of the Territorial Delegation of Science Technology and environnment Ministry (CITMA), call the VIII INTERNATIONAL WORKSHOP ON AFRICANISTS IN THE CARIBBEAN to be held from April 5th to April 9th 2005 with the objective of creating a place and way t
o approach, to value the scientific work in the disciplines of the social sciences to which Fernando Ortiz and Romulo Lachatanere devoted their work.

We invite specialists on arts, litterature, linguistics, philosophy, religion, music and dance to engage in an open dialogue to profound and share arguments and subjects.

The eight edition will be dedicated to studies on the culture of the YORUBA. Its presence and permanence in America and the Caribbean have been object of study of both researchers.
Nowadays we see the relevance of the scientific approach to YORUBA presence in our countries increasing as we study the cultural elements of this nation present in the ethnic heresy of our peoples to the point that we notice that a great part of the cultural manifestations that are still practiced today and are part o the cultural identity in Latin America and the Caribbean, originate in the culture of the YORUBA.

It should also be taken into account that ethnic research conducted in our count
ry has made visible that in some regions of Cuba, Latin-America and the Caribbean, the presence of the ethnic YORUBA formed the greater part.

GENERAL THEMES

.) Yoruba people in the history of Africa, pre-colonial stage, expansion, territories, colonization, slave trade and the evolution of Yoruba World up to this date.

.) Yoruba culture in Africa and the New World, its extension and survival. Its expression in literature, music, fine arts and traditional medicine.

.) YORUBA RELIGION, Its interdependence with Islam. Presence and evolution of the Yoruba element in popular religious expressions of African roots in the New World. Changes that have been effectuated in this period. Rituals and Ceremonials. Differences and similarities between Cuba, Africa, Latin-America and the Caribbean.

.) Orality in yoruba Culture. Its presence in the orality of the New World. The myths.

.) Africanistics in Cultural studies nowadays. Approaches in Cuba, America and the Caribbean. [/quot
e]

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:39 pm

[quote]...On one hand you refer to the "rejete crusades" and the other you infer that Haiti is not divided by religion.[/quote]
Because that's how I understand the reality. It's true that the "kanpay rejete" was a form of religious persecution. But what divides the haitian society right now (as in the past) is not a question of religion. Money is the key. And among both the <I>Zafè bon</I> and the <I>malere</I> there are vodouists as well as non-voduists (christians, if you will)...., not to mention those people who have a totally different faith or no faith at all, but who can be <I>toujou razé</I> or <I>ap byen mennen</I>...



gelin

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:45 pm

[quote]Gelin, See what's possible in a "serious country" where most of the veils have been lifted, where people have the freedom of their religious expressions thus permitting important researches.[/quote]
In the Haiti I know, there is religious freedom --- currently. It's not religious persecution that prevents serious research in the area of religious tradition in the country. In fact, such studies have been conducted in the past, and in the 70-80's I used to read research papers by someone like Max Beauvoir.

gelin

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:28 pm

Ah! Come on, Gelin,

You remember the tollé against Aristide, just because of his recognition of Vodou as a religion as any other?

I remember some of the reactions, like those of Radio Metropole, for example. I remember also some people saying that Aristide was consecrating the country over to the Devil.

About Max Beauvoir, I have read some of what he wrote. I wouldn't put that in the category of serious scholarship. Beauvoir believes that the "loup garous" exist. I have seen his opinions on the subject.

When I am talking about lifting the veils, in a country like Cuba for example: Gelin, anybody can go to Havana, or Santiago and speak to the "chairmen" of a former secret society. They would explain to you where they come from, how that society was formed etc..

Do you have that in Haiti, where these guys come out at night and they are called all kinds of name: Bizango, vlengbendeng etc?

That's one diffe
rence among many.

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:02 am

[quote]Ah! Come on, Gelin, You remember the tollé against Aristide, just because of his recognition of Vodou as a religion as any other?[/quote]
Pleeeeeeeease Jonas: Just look at the concrete actions of those in power now, and you'll understand that it was never a matter of religion but rather a question of where the money and resources of the country will go and remain. Have they done anything against Vodou for the last 12 months? Nope! Why? Because it's not the real issue......

[quote]...About Max Beauvoir, I have read some of what he wrote.[/quote]
It was just an example of rudimentary research just to point to the fact that there's been such an attempt in the country. Again, if the quality of that research is not high, IT'S NOT BECAUSE THERE IS DISCRIMINATION AGAINST VODOU. That situation only reflects the general state of the entire country when it comes to serious research
. The country is behind in almost everything for obvious reasons.

[quote]Do you have that in Haiti, where these guys come out at night and they are called all kinds of name: Bizango, vlengbendeng etc?[/quote]
You don't have that in Haiti because the country has never been at peace within its borders. Now, Bizango, Sanpwèl, Vlengbendeng and Wetepo do exist. Call them secret societies, bands of criminals or anything else....but they do exist. And in some cases, Jonas, if you do not have your laisser-passer, they may not let you pass by....

Ak pasyans na wè lonbrit foumi...

gelin

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:44 pm

Gelin,

I am curious, why do you call them "bandits"?
Growing up, I have heard of these "kout poud", meaning that if you unfortunately meet one the "band sosyete" at night, you could be victim of the "poud".
Is it truth or legend?
I don't know.
One remedy would be to lift the "veil".
These people are the repository of some of our history. I am sure that the "band sosyete" were active in our war of Independence and other important events in the history of Haiti.
I remember seeing a piece on the BBC about the secret societies of Ghana.
Some of them date to the 13th Century.
Nowadays they organize dances, and they go from village to village to exhibit their dancing prowess.
You can be sure, we have the offshoots of these societies in Haiti, as in Cuba, Brazil, Colombia etc..

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:01 am

[quote]Gelin, I am curious, why do you call them "bandits"?[/quote]
I did not specifically refer to them as "bandits". All I did was to mention a few names by which they are called or can be called.

Regarding their role in the independence war, it is obvious that anything or any group working with that level of secrecy was useful at that time. I suspect that the "laisser-passer" may have originated from colonial times when a slave needed such a document to move in the colony from one place to the other. For sure, a better understanding of the working of the groups would be welcome....a kind of cultural tourist attraction the same way the troubadours were doing in the 70's. Do you remember Altieri Dorival....?

Back to the "kout poud" thing. Several people have told me of the various methods that can be used to prepare those poisons, ranging from the saliva of dead people (cadav vèt) to the famous <I
>froufrou</I> fish combined with ground frog....elatriye. Some go also to the cemetery (from what I have heard) to collect the dust of decaying bodies......sinister game. I remember two "bann raras" engaged in an exchange of such deadly poisons (powder) right in front of everybody during carnival in bas-plateau central....I guess Max Beauvoir said or wrote something about that also.

Fòk nou fouye zo nan kalalou...

gelin

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:14 pm

Gelin,

Se pou pawòl lougarou sa yo sispann.
Gade ki sa ki rive yon pòv malerèz nan Tigwav?
Gen yon moun ki akize malerèz lan, ke l ta voye mò sou pitit li; e poutèt sa, yo koupe tèt pòv malerèz lan.
Sa rive nan semenn lan.
Inyorans sa a, gen de konsekans ki trajik.
Li lè pou pwotestan fondamantalis nan peyi an sispann pale de dyab ak tout vye koze kon sa.
Si yo pa vle "sis e desis", li lè pou gen yon gouvènman eklere ki fòse yo.

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:40 am

[quote]a kind of cultural tourist attraction the same way the troubadours were doing in the 70's[/quote]

No Gelin, like I said before, these people are the repositories of some of our history and a lot of our culture.

These people are taken very seriously in Cuba, and as you may know, the Cubans are among the best educated people on earth.

This is what was written as Obituary of LUIS CALLE GARCIAon the occasion of his passing:

[quote]LUIS CALLE GARCIA

LUIS CALLE died in the last week of November 1997. He had a tremendous, irreplaceable knowledge of the Bricamo traditions and his loss is the very kind of thing we fear the most, as many elders are passing on, without the opportunity of passing their knowledge to others.

The CALLE FAMILY is the holder of the BRIKAMO FUNDAMENTO and carriers of this religion,
whose African heritage comes from the EFO nation of the Niger Delta, close cousins of the EFIK.
In Cuba the Efik/Efo group is best known for having given us the ABAKUA religion, a male society still strong in Cuba. Most of the MUNEQUITOS, for example, belong to the Abakua temples.

The CALLES participated in the MAMBISES, the army of run away slaves and freed blacks who fought in he struggle for independence from Spain. The Calle family was strong in the rural areas of Union de Reyes in the Province of Matanzas.

Luis Calle's great grandfather was ANSELMO CALLE, father of his grandmother. The GUAGUANCO, one of the principal forms of rumba, was invented within his family. Folklorists have known of a relationship between Efik/Efo dances and Rumba, but this is a very direct indication of such a relationship.

Brikamo is closely related to Abakua, also from the Niger Delta, except that Abakua is entirely male oriented. Women play a leading role in Brikamo and are holders of the FUNDAMENTO wh
en they are the eldest in a family; the Fundamento being passed on from eldest to eldest.

The Brikamo religion contains elements of

1-Abakua, without the secrecy of abakua

2-esperitismo

3-Santeria (Yoruba)

In classic African Fashion, where a people coming into a new area need to adapt to that area, the ancestors of LUIS CALLE adopted elements of Catholicism, Spiritualism and of their Yoruba neighbors into their ancestral EFO religion. Sometimes this is referred to as Syncretism, as if it were a blend. It is rather an adaptation of external elements in order to perpetuate the original GENIUS of the Culture.

Brikamo is not a religion with possession, as is frequently the case in Africa, for example with the Yoruba and the Bantu. Rather it is a religion where one calls the spirits thanks to the use of certain instruments--the small drums also used in Abakua and the Marimbula, a piano made with steel bars (in Cuba, with steel bars from beds). One suspects that it is this
tradition of calling the spirits which attracted members of the religion to adapt elements of esperitismo.

LUIS CALLE was a font of knowledge, with respect to the ceremonies and traditions of the Brikamo. He was also OBA of the CABILDO NILO NILLE, CUCHO'S CABILDO.

OBA is a Yoruba term meaning KING and shows the Calle family has adopted elements of their Yoruba neighbors in Matanzas.

Luis Calle has run across manifestations from the Niger Delta in Brazil, in a film called GANGAZU, about the free communities in Northern Brazil.

Some of the songs it contains seemed to him to be directly related to the Brikamo Tradition.

He has given courses in Venezuela, which has a very active YORUBA community.

And he was taken on participatory research into his family roots and their african Heritage. [/quote]

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:08 am

[quote]No Gelin, like I said before, <I>these people are the repositories of some of our history and a lot of our culture.</I> These people are taken very seriously in Cuba, and as you may know, the Cubans are among the best educated people on earth.[/quote]
I agree and we are looking at the same thing...almost. As I said before, the lack of education in the country - among many other things - can be the reason that partcular aspect of haitian culture is the way it is. And I'll repeat: it's not because of discrimination against vodouists. Haitians are in general open-minded and have a great sense of tolerance or accommodation about almost anything or any religion or lifestyle, except when it comes to the wealth and resources of the country.

gelin

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:07 pm

[quote]Gelin, Se pou pawòl lougarou sa yo sispann.[/quote]
Jonas monchè....ou genlè ap jwe. Koze lougarou sa a poko prèt ap sispann paske gen anpil anpil anpil moun ki kwè ladann.

[quote]Gade ki sa ki rive yon pòv malerèz nan Tigwav? Gen yon moun ki akize malerèz lan, ke l ta voye mò sou pitit li; e poutèt sa, yo koupe tèt pòv malerèz lan.[/quote]
Sa se on problèm sipèstisyon melanje ak absans lajistis nan zòn nan. Edikasyon ak lajistis se sa sèlman ki ka ede nou ak traka konsa.

[quote]...Li lè pou pwotestan fondamantalis nan peyi an sispann pale de dyab ak tout vye koze kon sa...[/quote]
Misyonè potestan komanse antre nan peyi a lontan aprè endependans.....te gentan gen bizango, sanpwèl, wetepo ak lougarou deja. Se pa pwotestan ki lakoz sa....

gelin

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:46 pm

Gelin,

Mwen konnen gen sa yo rele Bizango, sanpwèl. Se sa ke yo rele
"sosyete sekrè" oubyen nan jan moun yo di "band sosyete".
Yo ekziste ou byen yo te ekziste.

Kanta lougarou an, ou ka esplike m sa sa ye?

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:35 pm

[quote]Kanta lougarou an, ou ka esplike m sa sa ye?[/quote]
Yon madanm ke m konnen kenbe nan men l on ti bebe (ke m konnen tou), li jwe avè l pou yon vyektitan, li soufle nan figi l, li fè l danse, epi li depoze l atè. Apre madanm nan al fè wout li, ti bebe a kagou, manm ni kase epi li koumanse paka kenbe kò l ankò.

Moun yo rele anmwe epi yo kouri al chache madanm nan lakay li. Apre yo fè l anpil menas, li retounen nan zòn nan al fè on ti te fèy bay ti bebe a bwè. Krik! tibebe a refè lamenm. Sak pirèd la, madanm nan se te on sè pwotestan l te ye.

M gen lòt ekzanp toujou...

Dapre tout sa m te aprann ak tande, lougarou se fanm ki gen senp oubyen kèk pwen nan maji, men ki enterese anpil nan koupe souf timoun piti. Yo di ke 7 lougarou ka met ansanm pou yo touye on hougan.

Kidonk Jonas, pawòl la di ke sa on nonm pa konnen pigran pase w....

gelin

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:08 pm

[quote]...Podyab lougawou, ni anbasad Etazini, ni Anbasad Canada pa janm vle ba yo viza, dekwa pou tout operasyon "bèl mèvèy" sa yo ka fèt gwo lajounen, devan kamera televizyon lot peyi tou...[/quote]
Jaf, gen anpil anpil bagay nan kilti nou ki senpman sipèstisyon e ki pral disparèt le nou rive devlope. An atandan, chaje hougan ak majisyen aysyen lòtbò dlo. Jaf, fè on kout lanbi kay Max Beauvoir nan adrès sa a epi poze l kèk kesyon dirèkteman: http://www.vodou.org/whatis.htm Mande l kisa l panse de lougarou ak zobop. E kesyon rele moun nan govi a...? M deja konnen Jonas pap dakò, men eseye kanmenm...

[quote]Mèsi anko wi frè Gélin. Kom mwen gen yon ti bebe 3 mwa m ap veye pou okenn sè Pwotestan pa vin estènye nan figi li.[/quote]
Nou gen kèk tan nou pa koze wi Jaf. Benediksyon Bondye pou ou ak tout ti pitit ou a!

Sè pwotestan sa a te vin tounen on manm enpòtan nan gwoup
yo rele lameselès la. Eske w konn istwa lameselès? Se on maryaj kiltirèl ant pratik pwotestan pannkotis e pratik vodou. Si on nonm pa byen konnen, ou gendwa paka fè diferans ant on sèvis lameselès e on sèvis vodou - tèlman yo sanble e abiye menmjan.

gelin

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Fri Feb 25, 2005 7:30 am

Gelin,

Anvan w komanse, ou te sipoze di krik pou n repon n krak...

Bagay sa w di a, manman m ban m menm istwa sa lontan lontan. Kididonk, malatchong nan te deyO deja.

A la de zen ak frE gelin, w ap fE m ri san m pa bezwen.

MEsi, chapo ba
leonel

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:30 am

[quote]Gelin...Bagay sa w di a, manman m ban m menm istwa sa lontan lontan. Kididonk, malatchong nan te deyO deja...[/quote]
Manti.....amwenske manman w konn madanm nan byen...:o) Ou se nèg platosantral pavre?

Li pa nesesè pou m nonmen non madanm nan, men sa pase sou gran ri nan vil Hinche nan on kay ke m konnen. Li pa nesesè nonplis pou m nonmen non ti moun nan. Non timoun nan komanse ak lèt <I>D</I>. Se pa on blag ni on istwa, kidonk leonel vye frè m, si ou vle ri ou mèt ri mezi w vle paske gen anpil bagay <I>rizib</I> ki konn pase e kap kontinye pase nan peyi nou.

Pou m rejwenn Jonas, sa ki ta dwe fèt se on bon etid pou mande moun sa yo ki teknik yo itilize pou desonnen tibebe. Menmjan an, nou te ka made hougan yo ki resèt yo fè pou delala moun oubyen pou geri yo lè sa posib. Konsa nou ta ka rive separe manti ak verite, radòt ak bagay serye. Konesans nou ta grandi. Gen on ti pye flè
toupiti ke yo rele konkonm zonbi (<I>Datura Stramonium</I> si m pa twonpe m). Ou konn poukisa yo ba l non sa a.....?

Zonbi goute sèl li pa mande rete!


gelin

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:09 am

Wi Gelin,
Yo ka desounen ti Bebe vre, wi! Men se pa ak lespri, senp ou nenpòt kijan ou ta vle rele l. Gen de moun sa yo, se kriminèl yo ye, sa yo konn fè an, pa gen anyen pou l wè ak relijyon.

Gen yon lòt bagay ankò, mwen wè ou koutinye ap asosye lougawou ak Vodou. Zafè lougawou an (loup garou), se de kwayans nou pran nan men blan franse. Kòm ou ka konnen, pa gen lou ann Afrik.

E kwayans sa yo vini, paske moun gen tandans bay pouvwa sinatirèl ak bagay yo pè. Lou yo te fè anpil moun pè an Ewòp sitou nan kanpay yo. Se nan nwit, bèt sa yo te chase e se an pakèt. Lejand sa a te popilé anpil an Frans; nan sèzyèm syèk lan, gen de milye de moun ki pèdi la vi yo sou akizasyon ke yo se lougawou. Yo te pann yo, boule yo touvivan, nweye yo, koupe tèt yo, elatriye.

Kwayans sa yo konn ekziste sou diferan fòm, nan lòt kote.

Gen de kote ann Afrik, yo kwè ke gen de moun ki konn transfòme tèt yo an LEYOPA. Ou wé sanblay la; leyopa y
o, se nan nwit yo konn chase e sou rete nan zòn chas yo an, yo gen dwa tonbe sou wou, san pa atand e yo devore w.

Nan zòn zil Pasifik yo, gen moun ki kwé gen de moun ki ka chanje tèt yo an REKEN. Se pou menm rezon ke m te site piwo an. Moun sa yo, se lanmè ki fè yo viv; kididonk reken yo, se toujou yon danje pou yo.

GELIN, Pa gen lougawou e bagay sa a pa gen anyen pou l wè ak Vodou.

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:02 pm

Jonas di:
[quote]Zafè lougawou an (loup garou), se de kwayans nou pran nan men blan franse. Kòm ou ka konnen, pa gen lou ann Afrik. [/quote]
Mesi mwen pat konn sa Jonas.
leonel

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:52 pm

Leonel,

Men plis evidans sou orijin franse, lejand "loup-garou" an:

http://rking.vinu.edu/loup.htm

[quote]The Loup-Garou Legends of Old Vincennes

Although scholars cannot agree when French fur traders, adventurers and pioneers first settled in what now is Vincennes, Indiana, these hardy souls surely arrived in this small town near the Wabash river sometime during or before the early 18th century.

Wherever the French wandered in the New World, their folktales came with them, and occasionally stayed to be collected by folklorists. As late as the 1930s, a group of writers with the Federal Writers' Project of the Works Progress Administration discovered a handful of Vincennes French descendants in their seventies and eighties who remembered the French oral traditions of their ancestors. These writers recorded some of the folk tales of a culture that was important in
the development of the United States....

Baker explains that storytelling was one of the main forms of entertainment of the French at social gatherings and in the home. Baker notes that A POPULAR FIGURE IN THESE STORIES IS THE LOUP-GAROU or Werewolf:

The loup-garou, to most who believed in him, was a fierce werewolf, though in Vincennes, as in New York, the loup-garou may also be a person transformed into a cow, horse, or some other animal.

Once under a spell as a loup-garou, the unfortunate victim became an enraged animal that roamed each night through the fields and forests for a certain period of time, usually 101 days. During the day, he returned to his human form, though he was continually morose and sickly and fearful to tell of his predicament, lest even a worse sentence should befall him. The main way he could be released from the spell before serving the stipulated time, was for someone to recognize him as a person transformed to an animal and somehow draw blood from the loup-gar
ou.

Even when the disenchantment had been performed, both the victim and his rescuer could not mention the incident, even to each other, until the time was up. Anyone who violated the tabou would become possessed immediately and face a much stiffer sentence...

[/quote]

Leonel JB

Post by Leonel JB » Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:26 pm

Thanks Jonas,
Now for more research or schooling: What is it, is it Champwel or Sampwel?

Another one, What is the difference between a Bizango and a samp or champwel?
Thanks,
leonel

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:54 am

Yon lòt lòsyè sou "lejand" lougawou an.
Mwen sonje lò mmwen te ti moun, mwen te konn tande koze, sou moun ki fèt a kwaf. Moun ki te konn ap rakonte istwa sa yo, pa t janm di ekzakteman sa "KWAF" la ye.

Men yon eksplikasyon sou sa "kwaf" la ye, e ki kote lejand sa a sòti.

Gelin, remake bagay sa yo pa gen absoliman anyen pou yo wè ak Vodou, e tout se lejand Ewopeyen yo ye:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/scream38/loupgarou.htm

[quote]....On croyait que ceux qui naissaient coiffés, avec une tache de vin ou des cheveux ressemblant à des poils de loup étaient des loups-garous. En général, on roulait la coiffe et on la gardait comme amulette ou on la cousait dans les vètements. ELLE ETAIT PARTOUT REPUTEE POUR PORTER CHANCE. Parmi les SERBES et les SLOVENES aussi qu'en POLOGNE et chez les KATCHOUBES, on disait que les enfants nés coiffés, ou avec des cheveux ou une tache de vin, AVAIENT LE DON DE DOUBLE
VUE ET DE METAMORPHOSE...[/quote]

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:37 am

[quote]Wi Gelin, Yo ka desounen ti Bebe vre, wi! Men se pa ak lespri, senp ou nenpòt kijan ou ta vle rele l. Gen de moun sa yo, se kriminèl yo ye, sa yo konn fè an, pa gen anyen pou l wè ak relijyon.[/quote]
Non Jonas...

Premye pati</B> a bon paske gen moun konsa nan peyi a ki konn desonnen tibebe lajounen kou lanwit. Rele yo kriminèl si w vle. Gen defwa lapolis arete yo, gen defwa se fanmi tibebe a ki fè presyon sou yo. Ki teknik yo itlize? Sa a se gwo sekrè!

Kanta pou dezyèm pati</B> pawòl ou yo, m pa dakò avè w. Ou paka rete konsa ou deklare ke sa moun sa yo ap fè a pa gen anyen pou l wè ak relijyon. Kouman w fè konn bagay konsa? Gen fannm kal pran pwen kay hougan, gen lòt ke lwa fanmi yo chwazi depi piti....vwala ke ou menm ou deklare se pa vre.

[quote]Gen yon lòt bagay ankò, mwen wè ou koutinye ap asosye lougawou ak Vodou. Zafè lougawou an (loup garou), se de kwayans nou
pran nan men blan franse. Kòm ou ka konnen, pa gen lou ann Afrik.[/quote]
Mo lougawou a soti na men blan franse e m konn sa byen. Men pratik ak aktivite lougawou yo se on lòt koze. M panse tou ke mo baka a ke anpil mou itilize ka sòti nan mo panyòl la ki vle di bèf paske tout fason moun yo dekri on baka li sanble ak on tibèf.

[quote]Kwayans sa yo konn ekziste sou diferan fòm, nan lòt kote.[/quote]
M dako avè w e se nan sityasyon sa a nou ye la a nan peyi a. Kom mwen te di l deja: nou bezwen edikasyon ak devlopman epi anpil nan radòt sa yo ap disparèt.

[quote]Gen de kote ann Afrik, yo kwè ke gen de moun ki konn transfòme tèt yo an LEYOPA. Ou wé sanblay la; leyopa yo, se nan nwit yo konn chase e sou rete nan zòn chas yo an, yo gen dwa tonbe sou wou, san pa atand e yo devore w.[/quote]
On bèl egzanp sipèstisyon...ki pou disparèt ak edikasyon!

[quote]GELIN, Pa gen lougawou e bagay sa a pa gen anyen pou l wè ak Vodou.
[/quote]
Sa a se on deklarasyon defwa! Al mande on lougawou eske pa gen lougawou. Al mande on bon hougan eske pa gen lougawou. Madanm sa a ki te vle desonnen tibebe a, li menm li ka di w si gen lougawou ak si pa gen lougawou. Ou ka chanje non yo si w vle e sa pa pwoblèm ditou ditou. Reyalite a sèke gen anpil moun ki pran plezi atake ak desonnen tibebe (pran bonnanj yo) nan peyi a.....e yo fè sa ak teknik sekrè....
Ou pa ka ap benyen pou w ap kache lonbrit ou!

gelin

Jonas
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:53 am

Post by Jonas » Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:37 am

Gelin,

Zafè "desounen" an, se pa nan sans ou vle ba li l la.
Mwen kwè ke gen moun mechan ki ka pwazonnen ti bebe, natirèlman; ak pwazon ke yo gen sekrè yo.

Kanta bagay lougawou an, mwen san pou san si ke pa gen sa; ke bagay sa a se lejand.

Sanble, jan w reponn pòs mwen yo, genlè se anwon n ap tounen.

Si pou w ta dakò ke pa genyen lougawou vre, se tout "worldview" w, pou w ta chanje.

Ann kite sa.

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:18 pm

[quote]Gelin, Zafè "desounen" an, se pa nan sans ou vle ba li l la. Mwen kwè ke gen moun mechan ki ka pwazonnen ti bebe, natirèlman; ak pwazon ke yo gen sekrè yo.[/quote]
Sa posib e m te ba w on ekzanp byen klè sou de moun ke mwen menm menm m konnen!

[quote]Kanta bagay lougawou an, mwen san pou san si ke pa gen sa; ke bagay sa a se lejand.[/quote]
Ou gendwa 100% si ke pa gen lougawou si ou panse ak lejann eropeyen yo sèlman.</B> <U>Se pa de sa m ap pale</U>. An ayiti, lè yo di lougawou yo pa pale de li menmjan ak an erop. An ayiti lougawou vle di moun (an jeneral fanm) ki espesyalize yo nan atake ak detwi lavi ti moun piti - kèlkeswa teknik yo itilize pou sa. M te ba w on bon egzanp sou sa.</B>

[quote]Sanble, jan w reponn pòs mwen yo, genlè se anwon n ap tounnen. Si pou w ta dakò ke pa genyen lougawou vre, se tout "worldview" w, pou w ta chanje.</B> Ann ki
te sa.[/quote]
Kouman pou m ta dakò avè w ke pa gen lougawou an Ayiti alòske m fèk ba w egzanp youn????? M ba w on egzanp ki sa ou moun ke m konnen te fè. Se pa kesyon de "worldview". Sa se esperyans ak reyalite. Annou kite sa si n ap tounen an ron. Si w vle Jonas, ou ka toujou kwè pa gen moun konsa an Ayiti (rele yo lougawou oubyen ba yo lòt non). Kanta pou mwen, m a toujou sonje esperyans sa a (ak lòt tou), e m ap toujou kontinye fouye, li, poze kesyon, chache konnen.

On pwovèb ayisyen: 7 lougawou met ansanm yo manje on hougan!

gelin

Post Reply