The biblical account of creation: reality or fantasy?

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Leoneljb
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Post by Leoneljb » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:53 am

I would like to start by the beginning of "Humanity" first.

Genesis 1 (King James Version)

Related Commentaries
* Matthew Henry's Commentary
* Wesley's Explanatory Notes

Related books
Encountering the Book of Genesis by Bill T. Arnold
Genesis (Mastering the Old Testament) by Lloyd J. Ogilvie
Life Lessons: Book of Genesis by Max Lucado

The Creation
  • In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [/*:m]
  • And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.[/*:m]
  • And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. [/*:m]
  • And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. [/*:m]
  • And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening [1] and the morning were the first day.[/*:m]
  • And God said, Let there be a firmament [2] in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. [/*:m]
  • And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. [/*:m]
  • And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.[/*:m]
  • And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. [/*:m]
  • And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. [/*:m]
  • And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, [3] the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. [/*:m]
  • And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [/*:m]
  • And the evening and the morning were the third day.[/*:m]
  • And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day [4] from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: [/*:m]
  • And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon [/*:m]
  • And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, [5] and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. [/*:m]
  • And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, [/*:m]
  • And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. [/*:m]
  • And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.[/*:m]
  • And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. [/*:m]
  • And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. [/*:m]
  • And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. [/*:m]
  • And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.[/*:m]
  • And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. [/*:m]
  • And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.[/*:m]
  • And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. [/*:m]
  • So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. [/*:m]
  • And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth [6] upon the earth.[/*:m]
  • And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing [7] seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. [/*:m]
  • And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, [8] I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.[/*:m]
  • And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.[/*:m]
My question is this: Do you see anything wrong with this?
If we start to analyze the so-called "Truth" which is the Foundation of all Believers. Then, Guys, we are in deep trouble.

This God to me, is building things which He is not so sure of the outcome...
We can dissect every paragraph and give our opinion.

Leo

P.S. Tayi fE'm tande'w. M'pa renmen lE ou parEt pou oun moman, aprE ou met van nan vwal ou....

Leoneljb
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Post by Leoneljb » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:09 am

My questions are these:
Why someone or a Spirit so Powerful, so Perfect, has to make things Steps by steps?
Someone who knows everything from A to Z how come his End-Points are not known to him?
Ban'm oun ti limyE souple.
Leo

Leoneljb
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Post by Leoneljb » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:16 am

MY BELOVED, I can not leave without giving you the best of all which is:

Genesis 2 (King James Version)

Related Commentaries
* Matthew Henry's Commentary
* Wesley's Explanatory Notes

Related books
Encountering the Book of Genesis by Bill T. Arnold
Genesis (Mastering the Old Testament) by Lloyd J. Ogilvie
Life Lessons: Book of Genesis by Max Lucado
  • Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. [/*:m]
  • And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. [/*:m]
  • And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created [1] and made.
    Man in the Garden of Eden[/*:m]
  • These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, [/*:m]
  • And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. [/*:m]
  • But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. [/*:m]
  • And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.[/*:m]
  • And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. [/*:m]
  • And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. [/*:m]
  • And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. [/*:m]
  • The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; [/*:m]
  • And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. [/*:m]
  • And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. [2] [/*:m]
  • And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward [3] the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates. [/*:m]
  • And the Lord God took the man, [4] and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.[/*:m]
  • And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: [/*:m]
  • But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely [5] die.[/*:m]
  • And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet [6] for him. [/*:m]
  • And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam [7] to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. [/*:m]
  • And Adam gave [8] names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.[/*:m]
  • And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; [/*:m]
  • And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made [9] he a woman, and brought her unto the man. [/*:m]
  • And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, [10] because she was taken out of Man. [/*:m]
  • Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. [/*:m]
  • And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.[/*:m]
Ainsi soit-il
Leonel

Leoneljb
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Post by Leoneljb » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:47 am

This one is a Classic!
Women are demonized and God couldn't predict Serpent's behavior?
God's ideal Creations were supposed to be Stupid and Naked...
Also, if commits a Crime, one should be punished for Generations (pitit pitit pitit ou sipoze pran pEnn de mO)...


Genesis 3 (King James Version)

Related Commentaries
* Matthew Henry's Commentary
* Wesley's Explanatory Notes

Related books
Encountering the Book of Genesis by Bill T. Arnold
Genesis (Mastering the Old Testament) by Lloyd J. Ogilvie
Life Lessons: Book of Genesis by Max Lucado

Man's Disobedience
  • Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, [1] hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? [/*:m]
  • And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: [/*:m]
  • But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. [/*:m]
  • And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: [/*:m]
  • For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.[/*:m]
  • And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant [2] to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. [/*:m]
  • And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. [3] [/*:m]
  • And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool [4] of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.[/*:m]
  • And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? [/*:m]
  • And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.[/*:m]
  • And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? [/*:m]
  • And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. [/*:m]
  • And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.[/*:m]
  • And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. [/*:m]
  • And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.[/*:m]
  • Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.[/*:m]
  • And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; [/*:m]
  • Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; [/*:m]
  • In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.[/*:m]
  • And Adam called his wife's name Eve; [5] because she was the mother of all living.[/*:m]
  • Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.[/*:m]
  • And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. [/*:m]
  • Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. [/*:m]
  • So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.[/*:m]
Genesis 4 will follow soon!

Leonel

Leoneljb
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Post by Leoneljb » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:19 am

Gelin, Tayi, what's going on?
Disappearing once more?
Leonel
P.S. Si'm pile'n, Padon. Mwen jis ap kestyone "THE GREAT BOOK"...

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Guysanto
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Post by Guysanto » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:27 pm

Reproducing Tayi's response to Leonel as written originally in a different thread.

[quote]Leonel,

Thank you for your posts bro. The fist thing I must point out though is that they stray far from the topic which has to do with the Kalam Cosmological Argument. Even if I were to grant your suspicions in your post that still would not even come close to even interacting with the premises and form of the Kalam argument. If the passages which you cite were so fantastically false then all that would prove is that Genesis is not inerrant (although they do not actually prove such a thing) but then the Kalam argument would still stand for it does not use the Bible as an argument for its case. So we are back to square one: We must interact with the argument itself as presented in the intro of he thread.

It may be interesting though to have a discussion on Genesis, but that would probably have to be its own thread. Nevertheless let me make a comment or two in regards to your questions:

[quote]My question is this: Do you see anything wrong with this? [/quote]
No.

[quote]My questions are these:
Why someone or a Spirit so Powerful, so Perfect, has to make things Steps by steps?
Someone who knows everything from A to Z how come his End-Points are not known to him? [/quote] I don't think God had to make things that way, but why could a God who is indeed so powerful not be able to choose to do things however He wants? I don't know how you deduced the second point from the text.

[quote]Women are demonized and God couldn't predict Serpent's behavior?
God's ideal Creations were supposed to be Stupid and Naked...
Also, if commits a Crime, one should be punished for Generations (pitit pitit pitit ou sipoze pran pEnn de mO)...
[/quote] I think you are reading into the text. Where do you see "women" being "demonized"?
God made man and woman with innocence not stupidity. And I don't see what's wrong with being Naked. I'd think you of all people would agree with me here! :-)
Not sure where you got the last question again, but let me caution that we do not pretend to know justice better than God.

As a side note for all of us, I realize that arguments can be "fun" and informative, I do pray, however, that they do not distract us instead from the true essence of the question of God. May the arguments help us to reach a greater openness to Him rather than push us away. Forgive me if I have done anything to alienate any of you.

With love,
Tayi[/quote]

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Post by Guysanto » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:36 pm

OK, Leonel, you've promised Genesis 4. We have been waiting for it. When you are done, I am sure that Tayi will show us that all the perceived contradictions embedded in those tales are really just a failure of our understanding and that there is no contradiction after all. Am I right, Tayi?

Leoneljb
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Post by Leoneljb » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:00 am

Guito,
Ou twO prese mon konpE. Ann wE sa mesye legliz yo ap di nan twa genesis yo anvan.
In genesis I, do you realize that God was surprised of his accomplishments:" He saw that they were Good". Was Mr God in doubt?
Genesis II, God needed to rest after working so hard to build the Earth!
Now, I believe that he could have stopped Man's fascination with the "Tree of Knowledge". For someone so Perfect how could he had created imperfection??
Genesis III, that Woman went against God's will, took the apple and gave the "Innocent and Naive Man" a little bite... I believe that was Seduction.
By the way, I wonder if Serpent had legs before. Paske m'sonje yo te konn di'm se apre dezobeyisans ke bon Dye fE SEpan ranpe...
Mezanmi, eske se mwen ki pa konprann. Oudimwen, liv sa'a mal ekri pou konvenk oun pechE konkou'm?
Leonel

Leoneljb
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Post by Leoneljb » Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:10 am

Gen.4 this is a real "Meli Melo": Cain killed his Brother and at the end found a Wife somewhere...

[1] And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
[2] And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
[3] And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
[4] And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
[5] But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
[6] And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
[7] If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
[8] And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
[9] And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
[10] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
[11] And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
[12] When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
[13] And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
[14] Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
[15] And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
[16] And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
[17] And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
[18] And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
[19] And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
[20] And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle.
[21] And his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ.
[22] And Zillah, she also bare Tubal-cain, an instructer of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.
[23] And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
[24] If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
[25] And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
[26] And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.
Leonel

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:32 pm

Leo, do you know why Obama can never do or say anything right for some people (the same group that did not vote for him)? That's pretty much what your position reminds me of in some way...:-)

gelin

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Post by Leoneljb » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:02 am

M'pa konprann non mon frE.
The People you are comparing me to, use their irrational ways or views. They are against Logic, Reason and Morality. In other words They also are "Believers"...
This is where I get a little confused. The "Tea Baggers, Birthers or Conservatives" believe in GOD, Adam and Eve, Jesus Christ and all the dead People (Saints). I don't understand your analogy, Gel.
Ban'm oun ti limyE souple.
Leonel

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Post by Tayi » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:11 am

I think Gelin has quite a deep point that speaks to the issue on a level that is not just at the surface, but I will let him elucidate for us...

[quote]The People you are comparing me to, use their irrational ways or views. They are against Logic, Reason and Morality. In other words They also are "Believers"...[/quote]
Really, bro?

Tayi

Leoneljb
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Post by Leoneljb » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:32 pm

Tayi,
What's the deep point?
It is pretty simple. I am using the beginning which is: Genesis.
Now, Gelin quotes:
[quote]Leo, do you know why Obama can never do or say anything right for some people (the same group that did not vote for him)? That's pretty much what your position reminds me of in some way...:-)
[/quote]
I understand why a lot of People are looking for something else than Fictional Characters in books!
Really Bro!
Leonel

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:35 pm

Leo,

We, humans, have the strange ability to make up our mind on certains things, and once we do it's very difficult (not to say impossible) to even consider the possibility that we might be wrong. Jesus himself had trouble convincing some people on the value of his message despite the many good things he had done on their behalf:
[quote]<i>"To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others: " 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge and you did not mourn.' For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."</i> - Mat 11:16-18[/quote]
Leo, do you think it's possible that you might be wrong?

gelin

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Post by Leoneljb » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:25 am

Gel,
The reason why it is not possible to be wrong: I wanted to start with the Beginning which is Genesis. By the way this book came from someone who supposedly is PERFECT. The whole story is a myth based on Adam and Eve to Noah's Ark which by the way is not possible at all.
How big this Ark was? I am pretty sure, it should be bigger than Texas at least to carry about 2 million uncooperative Species... Secondly, I was wondering about which material it was made of. For, I believe, that Age of metals was not at the beginning! I assume it was made with Wood.
Could you imagine building a Boat with wood only. After a couple thousand square feet, bato sa'a t'ap koule...
M'pa vle al nan nouvo testaman yet. This will be after we analyze the "Ansyen testaman".
Wrong?
No way! Unless, they change the Stories. Make them more God-like. Someone so Powerful, so Perfect, there would had been no room for mistakes. Not someone who would make Man without Woman then realized how lonely and Gay we would look, decided to make the "Evil Doer" (Woman).
Wrong?
Maybe for questioning the "Great Book"!
Maybe for not accepting a Savior whom they found from Egyptian and Greek Mythologies born from a Virgin (what's with the fascination of Religious People with Virgins?)
Anyway, I need to get back to Genesis.
Educate me People!
I was hoping we would stick to Creation and existence of GOD le "PERE", not le "FILS".
Genesis, please!
Leo

Gelin_

Post by Gelin_ » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:16 pm

OK Leo, my bad! Let's go bad to the creation as presented in the Bible. So, I understand that YOU BELIEVE it's all fiction. Right? In your view, there is nothing real in Genesis 1 - 4. Am I correct?

One question for you then: if it's all fiction, in your opinion what's the purpose (or the message) of the genesis story?

gelin

Leoneljb
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Post by Leoneljb » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:32 am

Absolutely, positively Correct!
The purpose in my opinion is to show that everything is made by One God. Our ancesters are Adam and Eve. And,we are paying for the original Sin of our Forefathers which is "La desobeissance"...
My problem, I wish they made this story a little more believable.
They portrayed God the Omnipotent in our Image. They showed his imperfection like Humans.
I can not believe that One does not see any inconsistency in the Genesis at all!
By being too pragmatic, God looks more Human. In other words, we made God in our image, not the other way around.
Following steps, showed that he wasn't sure of the end-point. They showed him being content of his end results.
Anyway, did God create other Animals to be eaten?
Was a Lion's claws to cut grasses or grab his prey?
Antouka, mwen rete la.
By the way, Gelin mwen toujou admire "SajEs ou" kOm oun kwayan. Ou pa get offended by my Ignorance. I truly appreciate that.
Leo

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Post by Guysanto » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:24 am

Actually, Tayi authored the quote above, in rebutting Leonel's assertion that God created Man and Woman "stupid and naked". But I think that in phrasing it that way, Leonel was simply referring to the notion that Man and Woman were not supposed to partake of "The Tree of Knowledge" (therefore had to remain "stupid") and they were also "naked" and only later did a certain sense of morality dictate that they should cover themselves and not expose their nakedness.

As far as being "demonized", EVE (not ADAM) was seduced by the demon. We poor guys only got seduced by women, but God had made it impossible for us to resist.

But I do not want to read too much into Leonel's mind. God knows what goes on in there!

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Post by Leoneljb » Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:47 pm

Thank you, my Brother Guito. As always you read my quotes accurately.
Mezanmi kot Tayi ak Gelin?
Antouka, mwen pa kwE men, mwen byen renmen fEt ti Jezi'a!
SEl pwoblEm, twOp kOb pou kado...
Leonel

Tayi
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Post by Tayi » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:15 pm

I hope everyone had a very Merry Christmas, and I wish you all a tremendously Happy New Year!

I wanted to share a couple thoughts here after the long hiatus.

A discouraging point in the thread came when Leonel said: [quote]The People you are comparing me to, use their irrational ways or views. They are against Logic, Reason and Morality. In other words They also are "Believers"... [/quote]
I already highlighted that quotation, but perhaps I should clarify what was bothering me. It is the fact that Leo seems to equate those who are against logic, reason, and morality with believers as if they are one and the same thing, thereby putting me and any other believer that would engage him in the category of being against logic, reason and morality. If that is an accurate assessment of Leonel's perception of us then there is not much we can debate...

But I am leaving room for my misunderstanding what my brother, Leo, said. Perhaps he had a different meaning in mind in which case I drop my point.

Nonetheless, here is a quick video that articulates beautifully the point Gelin and I have been trying to make about Genesis: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk0el9nH6Q4

Enjoy!

In brotherly love,
Tayi

Bouli

Post by Bouli » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:35 am

Leonel,

Go back to Genesis 2:11 you'll find gold. Noah's vessel could have been in gold. Maybe if you follow the gold trail close, it will lead you to the original story.

Leonel if you were the one who wrote the genesis texts, as they are. Do you think they would be part of a best selling book ever?

Tayi posted a link of someone who shares his and Gelin's views in response to Leonel's messages. From what I hear, this guy is in agreement with many of Leonel views in his own word. He acknowledges the Bible as a library in which Genesis among many books are classified in the fiction area... He took me by surprise when he describes faith as something to surrender to; something that's beyond one's control. I think Leonel already found for the subjects a better way to interpret that suggested behavior in a message to Gelin.

Leonel when did the wedding take place (Adam & Eve's)?

Kenbe la,

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Post by Leoneljb » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:56 am

Bouli,
my hope is to get back being a Christian once more. I want to be convinced!
I need Help from the Believers. But, I would like to have more concrete evidence. Not, the Genesis of about four thousand years and the "Little Guy" born from a Virgin, used from the Egyptian and Greek Mythology...
Show me the way, People!
The Universe is so wide. But, it seems that GOD only focused on Earth only... How about the other Planets?
So many unanswered questions.
M'ale papa.
Leonel

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Post by Tayi » Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:30 pm

Hi Leonel,

Did you get to see the video I posted in the post right before Bouli's?

Bouli, the speaker in the video compared faith with falling in love. Super-rational. Surrendering in love does make on irrational.

Also, I don't think he ever called Genesis fiction. Rather it's a theologically rich narrative. See it again and try to discern any credits he may have. In other words look at it with an open mind.

Tayi

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Post by Guysanto » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:33 pm

Tayi, I feel certain that you have a typo in the sentence above, regarding "surrendering in love". Normally, when I see obvious typos, I just correct them, but I hesitate here because... did you truly want to state that "surrendering in love does make one irrational" ??? Was this a slip of the tongue? I know that you are in love with the Biblical God... indeed.

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Post by Tayi » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:52 am

What would I do without my brother, Guy?! :-)
You're right, there is a typo. It should have read "Surrendering in love does NOT make one irrational." Rather that act is beyond rationality--almost (if not entirely) beyond one's control although that does not make it IRrational. That is true for human love and divine love.

Tayi

Bouli

Post by Bouli » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:12 pm

Leonel,

If you really want to be a born-again. Don't miss that opportunity. Tayi just posted a video of pE Barron (nan TObEk) showing you how to surrender yourself to the enterprise.

Tayi,

pE Barron cited Genesis and poems in the same literary genre. I don't buy it either. Too much blood, sweat, too many lootings, burnings, persecutions, tortures, disappearings have been done when The Church had the power of swords, and armies to make them words of God. A member of the Church is too small to be able to shove them away without a ceremony. Just like that! After the Church lost its teeth.

I didn't mention anything being irrational in my previous post. I didn't expect pE Barron to describe his suggestive approach as being irrational. However he had to do a lot of cleaning after his faith description drop. I don't expect people who fall in love to say they're irrational either. Until something dull happen between the parties one can hear them say: they were blind, one can't understand what love can do to you...

Faith is generally described as one's strong conviction to fulfill duties, meet goals...one has to be in control, measure progress, trust the method of approach to reach the outcomes... It is also described as the persuasion of the mind that a certain statement is true. Meaning the statement needs to pass the mind test before it is even admitted in to be judged further, then convince the recipient, if it is true.

Fr. Barron says he's not going to ask the Bible how God created the world, he leaves that for Science to do. That's magic, right there! The man hands Genesis over to Science. He doesn't sound conservative, yet his honesty is almost as deep as one of a conservative Christian. Fr. Barron, it seems, doesn't get to know and love God the same way Tayi does. He rather admits he only can talk about God as master of the Universe among other things in a philosophical way.

Leonel I wish you good luck. If your mind is the only thing of value you are going to surrender.


bouli

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