About: the right to kill

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Guysanto
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About: the right to kill

Post by Guysanto » Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:34 pm

"Though shall not kill."

And yet, our society as a whole and individuals in it [sane or crazed] kill every day. When is killing justified?

Does the State truly have a "moral" leg to stand on to kill individuals by the application of capital punishment, in states where the death penalty is legal?

Do governments have a right to start wars, in a "preemptive manner" [as President Bush did in Iraq]?

Do we have a right to abort a child (or "fetus") in the womb?

Do we have the right to torture and kill animals for our consumption [for food, cosmetics, or gaming]?

Can humans live without killing? If not, how much killing is justified and in what circumstances?

[For my part, I think that it's "an absolute moral value" to kill as many flying cockroaches as possible. Don't you agree, Tayi?]

jafrikayiti
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Post by jafrikayiti » Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:35 pm

Guy,

As far as i concerned, until humanity invents an "undo" button to go along with the many weapons in circulation, the very fact that we use them to destroy human life - represents to me the proof that our species has not yet evolved to the level of sophistication its creator intended for it to reach. Whether it is an individual or a State that conduct the killing of a human being, it engages in a very STUPID and IRREVERSIBLE act.

Now, as the matter pertains to humans killing other animals, it is more difficult for me to come to an absolute conclusion.

The MINUSTAH soldier says: "Mwen manje Kabri, mwen pa vole Kabri" - I ate the chicken but I did not steal it (from the Haitian peasant). I can honestly say that I enjoy my Griyo ak Bannann Peze, but when I meet Osiris and make my MAAT confessions, I am ready to say that I have never killed the pig.

M ale papa!

Leoneljb
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Post by Leoneljb » Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:25 am

Sou zafè dilatasyon'an, ki lè li konsidere kòm oun krim?
Paske, mwen panse ke fi'a gen dwa detwi ze'a. Men, lè ti moun nan fòme oudimwen, oun seri de ògan la. Bon, se oun lòt zafè...
By the way, the Pro-life People, why hating abortion when eatin Chicken's eggs???
By the way, the pro-lifers are for death Penalty, go figure!
Pou zafè gran Mèt la menm, mwen jete'm. Paske, mwen pa panse ke Moun pwal viv oun lòt vi... What about the Chickens, Cows, Pigs we ate? Do they have a SOUL (based on the scriptures)? Would they have a judgement Day?
God didn't create the World, the World created God in its image. People created an imperfect God based on their imperfection...
M'ale anvan Tayi ak Gelin pa lapide'm la'a.
Léonel

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Post by Guysanto » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:57 am

[quote]By the way, the Pro-life People, why hating abortion when eatin Chicken's eggs???[/quote]
Well, Leonel, they may tell you that they do not eat fertilized eggs... In any case, while you may not agree with their position, I don't think you should trivialize it. By "pro-life", they mean "human life" (not chicken). The controversy lies in the definition of human life or when exactly it begins.

As for living things, we all kill them every day, every step we take, every breath we take. Now the consideration: is there such a thing as insignificant lives (the ants you step on, for example or lives that beg to be destroyed at every turn for the good of humanity (mosquitoes, rats, cockroaches, etc) ?

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Post by Tayi » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:56 am

[quote][For my part, I think that it's "an absolute moral value" to kill as many flying cockroaches as possible. Don't you agree, Tayi?][/quote]

LOL :-). You know it took a couple readings before I noticed those fine prints. By the way this reminds me that we need to finish (at least continue) the thread on the Moral Argument for God's Existence--speaking of which, has anyone seen Jman?)

As to the questions, the following from the Catechism of the Catholic Church might be interesting:
[quote]2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."[/quote]

Also,
[quote]2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

- there must be serious prospects of success;

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good. [/quote]

If you think these are interesting, you can read more in the online Catechism: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm
I linked directly to the appropriate section.

Enjoy.

Tayi

Oh, Leonel you spend so much time denying the afterlife that I am beginning to wonder if you are not simply afraid of it and have to keep making noise so you don't have to face the fear :-)

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Post by Leoneljb » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:03 am

Tayi, as a matter of fact I would love to have an afterlife, a lot of people would be in trouble...
Afterlife, where? In Heaven? We're already living Hell!
If there were true evidence of an afterlife, I would have been more happy to go as soon as possible. I wouldn't have to pay another bill on Earth. Unless God would charge me rent up there?
Leonel

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Post by Tayi » Sat May 03, 2008 6:53 pm

Leonel my friend, how good it was to finally meet you. You are even more fun in person :-)

Like I promised I am returning to some of the threads to continue our conversations. In regards to the after life I think, it is very tied with the existence of God so let us step over to the Moral Argument for the Existence of God to continue there under the religion/spirituality section.

Leoneljb
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Post by Leoneljb » Sat May 10, 2008 10:25 am

Mon chE, Neg Tayi sa'a toujou ap sove sou nou! Se oun chenn pou nou mare nan pye pE'a. KilE w'ap tounen papa?

Mwen menm, mwen pa panse oun moun ta sipoze tiye oun lOt kretyen apske yo pa gen menm kwayans. Men, sou zafE fetis ak anbriyo, ki lE yo konsidere oun imen?

Mwen panse ke ni Pro-Choice, ni Pro-Life gen bon agiman. Men se lE youn bezwen dechire lOt la, mwen oun tijan sispEk.

Pro-Life yo care pou fetis ak anbriyo. Men, yo pa give a hoot si ti moun nan fEt...

Pro-Choice menm panse ke li okay pou yo tiye ti Moun nan depi'l anndan vant. Eske'l ok pou nou tiye oun ti moun ki gentan fOme paske nou pa bezwen'l?

Gen konpwomi ki ka fEt si yo dakO...

L

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Guysanto
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Post by Guysanto » Sat May 10, 2008 11:52 am

Leonel, ki konpwomi ou panse ki ka fèt ant 2 pozisyon sa yo?

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Post by Tayi » Sat May 10, 2008 10:05 pm

Leonel,

A monchè, ou ta ankouraje mwen pito; ou wè mwen tounen pou nou kontinye diskisyon yo. :-)

Sou zafè fetis ak anbriyo w ap pale a, mwen santi genyen anpil moun (mwen menm enkli) ki prè pou di ke depi nan konsepsyon nou genyen yon imen. Men, m pa kwè genyen anpil moun ki prè pou di definitivman ke se PA yon imen li ye depi nan konsepsyon; yo gen dwa gen dout, men m santi se pa anpil moun ki SI se pa yon imen. Kote m pwale ak sa? If we're gonna err, let us err on the side of life, on the side of humanity. Sa vle di, si nou pa fin konnen avèk asirans si se pa yon imen ki la nan konsepsyon an, an nou pa pwan chans. Pito, an nou "assume" se yon imen.

Sa ki pi difisil, se lè ou tande gen anpil moun ki di wi yo kwè se yon imen, men yo toujou rete kwè ke ou ka tiye li nan vant.

Yon dènye nivo toujou se sa yo rele "Partial birth abortion". Sa a pa gen dout ditou, paske yo kite timoun nan soti nan vant lan enpe epi yo tiye li. Yo fè m konnen ke youn nan metòd ki itlize pou tiye tibebe a nan pwen sa a se yon bagay file yo pwan pou pese dè tèt timoun nan pou ka souse brenn tibebe a. Mesanmi si mwen mal konprann bagay la fè m konnen. Men si se vre, PAKA GEN KONPROMI LA A! Se swa li sa ou li pa sa!

An palan de konpwomi, m renmen anpil sa ou di:
[quote]Mwen panse ke ni Pro-Choice, ni Pro-Life gen bon agiman. Men se lE youn bezwen dechire lOt la, mwen oun tijan sispEk.[/quote]

Mwen 100% dakò. Men fòk ou fè atansyon lè ou di:
[quote]Pro-Life yo care pou fetis ak anbriyo. Men, yo pa give a hoot si ti moun nan fEt... [/quote]

Tanpri pa fè jeneralizasyon sa yo. Experyans pèsonèl mwen fè mwen kwè diferamman.

Epi, sou pwen konpwomi an. Monchè jan mwen di ou, mwen dakò ak pwemye sitasyon on genyen la a, men m pa kache di ou, mwen sispèk mo "konpwomi" sa a lè w ap pale de yon bagay konsa. Wi nou ka konpwomi nan fason nou trete lòt, pou wè ni Pro-choice ni Pro-life tout se moun e anpil fwa, tou de bò sensè nan kwayans yo. Men pa kite moun fè ou konpwomi sa ou konnen ki verite. Ou ka konpwomi nan biznis, men pa nan verite. The compromise of truth is not courageous but cowardly and empty. We should not compromise just to compromise, though we might be able to compromise on the various actions that are inspired by these beliefs. If something you believe in is shown to be NOT true, even then you should not compromise; you should reject it.

Epi m panse dènye kesyon ou poze a frape anpil:
[quote]Pro-Choice menm panse ke li okay pou yo tiye ti Moun nan depi'l anndan vant. Eske'l ok pou nou tiye oun ti moun ki gentan fOme paske nou pa bezwen'l?[/quote]

Tayi
P.S. Don't forget my invitation to the Moral Argument for God's existence.

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