Page 1 of 1

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:25 am
by Guysanto
Spare us your indignation.

We do not condone criminal conduct. In all circumstances, criminals should be arrested and punished with a sentence that is commensurate with the crime, IF THEY ARE GUILTY.

It would not be the first time that the people of Hata Mayor have FALSELY identified Haitians as perpetrators of crimes that Dominicans themselves have perpetrated and made innocent Haitian migrants pay with their lives.

It's not to say that Haitians never commit crimes, but pardon me if I take this sort of news with a grain of salt.

When Dominicans commit the worst sort of criminal abuses against innocent Haitians, such as murder by pouring gasoline on them and then deliberately lighting them on fire and burning them alive to the most painful kind of death, where are the voices of indignation from the Dominican state and the Dominican press? When Dominicans commit extremely violent crimes against Haitians, why aren't they arrested?

Please spare us your indignation, if it is one-sided and overly biased against people of Haitian descent.

From where I stand here, I will not hesitate to tell you that I smell a rat. The stench coming from Hata Mayor has not yet subsided.

Everyone, including of course, ALL Haitians, should learn to live honestly and peacefully, but the propaganda of HATE must stop.

If the Haitian government, to its enduring shame, has only feebly protested against abuses and crimes committed against people of Haitian descent in the Dominican Republic, this does not mean that as individuals, we must take it on the chin and follow the bad examples of our government. On "Ann Pale" and WindowsonHaiti.com, I reserve the right to call a cat a cat and a rat a rat. I truly wish that the Government of Haiti would do the same. It is their policy of neglect of bilateral relations on an equal footing between the two countries that has people of Haitian descent always eating crow in the D.R. President Preval could have done much better in his first administration, just as he can do much better in his second. He needs to wake up to the realities of Haitian migration and understand that his foreign policy so far is akin to an ostrich placing its head in the sand. The danger does not go away. The Dominican Government's offer of humanitarian assistance to Haiti at our time of distress does not alleviate either its responsibility to deal fairly with all hate crimes on its territory.

Posted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:02 pm
by Guysanto
I confused Hatillo Palma and Hato Mayor. Sorry for that. However, I do stand by everything else I wrote above.

I still smell a rat.

The surprising thing is that after you tried to whip up some antihaitianismo feelings here a couple of years ago, you have come back to the charge.

[quote]I also see lots of hate of the haitian people against your neiborgh.[/quote]
I am not surprised that you see it that way. To people who are familiar with both the Haitian and the Dominican people, "antidominicanismo" is not a word, not even a viable concept to describe the occasional resentment of the Haitian people towards their Dominican brothers. On the other hand, antihaitianismo is as real as it gets. You can hear it on the streets, public places, and radios; you can see it on television and newsprint; you can experience it in public transportation; and all of that, every single day. I have been to the Dominican Republic enough times to know what I am talking about.

The "lots of hate of the haitian people" you mention is real, but Dominican people are the ones who do most of the hating, BY FAR. Just read your own newspapers and your own internet sites.

Then, by comparison, read Haitian newspapers and Haitian internet sites. Where's the hate coming from, bro?


[quote]When Leonel visted P. Prince he was treated really bad by the haitians.[/quote]
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't this soon after some 15 Haitians were killed in cold blood after their bus was fired upon after crossing the border? Do you really expect Haitian people never to express their outrage at the killings of their brothers with impunity in the Dominican Republic?

[quote]I'm not a follower of L. Fernandéz, but what he did to help your brothers and mine's was in the spirit of christianity.[/quote]
Well, I prefer not to discuss "the spirit of christianity" here. Whenever politicians brandish it, I feel that someone is going to get mugged. From Christopher Columbus to Bartolome De Las Casas, from George W. Bush to Cardinal Nicolas de Jesus Lopez Rodriguez, Haitians or Africans have always gotten a raw deal. And now, you're going to tell me something about Leonel Fernandéz and Jesus Christ? Save your sermon and let's deal with the facts.


[quote]Later in the days to come i'll send the full version of what happened in Hatillo Palma.

And the crimes of the 4 haitian burned in Santo Domingo.[/quote]
Hopefully in English, French, or Haitian. The board is already trilingual. Making it quadri-lingual is a bit rich, don't you think?

But, yes, I sure would be interested in how you will justify burning "4 haitian in Santo Domingo".

[quote]Do you remember how the mob burned the Ton Ton Macoutes, when Baby Doc was overthrown ?[/quote]
Yes, they burned not "the" but "a few" Tonton Macoutes, and that was revolting! But what is your point here?

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 2:28 pm
by Edwin Paraison
Clement ak Guy,

PA GEN MOUN KAP FE-M KWE KE BAGAY SA SE VERITE.
Gen dwa se dominiken nwa, ke yo pa aksepte kom aysien. Si oldop la te fet sou fwontie a, li ta pi kredib. Men jis Hato Mayor. KATEGORIKMAN MWEN DI SE PA VRE. A la bel bagay papa, la polis kouri deye yo, yo gentan chape poul yo.

Kenbe la

Posted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:20 pm
by Leoneljb
Clement,
I wanted to make a few points, but I realize that you already made up your mind. Therefore, there is nothing I can add. Except like Guy, I would like to know what are you trying to show us? In other words, what is your point? Are you trying to show how barbaric a Nation or People can be, based on the acts of a few?
Leonel

Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:33 pm
by Barb
Why are you arguing about this now?

One million people left homeless...

Surely both sides of the border have other things to concern themselves with at the moment.

Acting like a thug has never struck me as being a unique characteristic of any particular nationality.

Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:32 pm
by Guysanto
[quote]So I see bias and desinformation on the Guy's report.[/quote]
The Guy's report????
Thank you for the advance billing! I'll start working on it.

But you see, my dear Clemente, on this board we keep our eyes wide-open. We have never preached hatred for the Dominican people. Yes, we are sensitive to the fact that "antihaitianismo" is alive and well in the Dominican Republic. No one seems more aware of it than many of my Dominican friends (like Mark T., Alba M., Kaity T.) and so many others in Brooklyn, NY and in New Jersey who continually protest the unfair treatment reserved for Haitian laborers and generations of Haitian migrants by the rich/manipulative/exploitative class and the poor/manipulated/exploited classes of Dominican society. My Dominican friends are not afraid to identify themselves as BLACK (not "indios" and other race-concealing names). They join Haitians hand in hand often weekly (and so for many years) to protest in front of the Dominican Consulate in Times Square, NY. They acknowledge the fact that we are TWO countries but ONE people, whose DNA lineage points mostly to Africa (and not Spain or other mostly white European countries). They are ashamed of the fact that many Haitians are routinely abused or killed indiscriminately in the most vicious cases of antihaitianismo which manifests itself on a daily basis in the Dominican press, TV, radio and cyberspace. My Dominican friends, brothers and sisters, want to put an end to the seemingly unending pattern of anti-Haitian prejudices that permeate deeply all institutions in the Dominican Republic, including the government, the judicial system, and the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.

We have never set out to demonstrate that all Dominicans are bad and all Haitians are good. That would be juvenile or downright stupid. That would be insulting to our Dominican allies. That would be equally insulting to the children of many "mixed marriage" families between Haitians and Dominicans, of which I personally know many. And did I say that this would be stupid??? As Barb pointed out "Acting like a thug has never struck me as being a unique characteristic of any particular nationality." This would be the equivalent of hating all Caucasians (including our dear Ann Pale friend, Barb) for the racism of some. On the other hand, would either Barb or I be so foolish to pretend that African-Americans have not been victimized by racism?

One fact remains in all of this: in Haitian society, anti-dominican feelings are sparse. In spite of "1937", growing up I was never raised to hate the Dominican side. Hate the sin, love the sinner: that's perhaps why many Haitian appear to be enamored of their basket-head per excellence, Jean-Claude Duvalier, in spite of the fact that he handsomely profited from the illicit trade of Haitian laborers to the Dominican Republic, and that Trujillo is often talked about as the "dictateur éclairé", a man who for all his madness put the progress of his country and the advance of his countrymen first. I have never heard of Jewish people praising the qualities of Adolf Hitler in any respect whatsoever. But Haitian people are the more forgiving kind. Instead of preaching eternal repudiation of Trujillo, they outdo themselves in lavishing praise on the generalissimo for the infrastructure that he bequeathed to his countryman, as opposed let's say to the impoverishment of François Duvalier's tyrannic years. Technically, they are right. But, emotionally, how can we bring ourselves to admire Rafael Trujillo, when the Jewish people have never seen any virtue in Adolf Hitler? Is it because Trujillo is really one of our own, which makes the genocide even more puzzling? As I am sure you know, Trujillo was partly Haitian, because his grandmother was a Haitian woman, born of Haitian parents in the geographical center of the Republic of Haiti. As great a country-first development planner he may have been, he was also consumed by self-hatred, which unfortunately seems to define so many Dominicans today: the hate of being Black (visibly so), the hate of carrying Haitian DNA which very, very few Dominicans could possibly escape, on any historical or scientific basis.

Even you, my dear Clemente.

[... and No, it's not a question of giving to the Red Cross! It is honorable to give to the Red Cross, but that does not wash the sins of hatred.]

You give us examples of successful Dominican women in the beauty parlor business in Port-au-Prince. I am elated to hear it. This should be publicized more, because up to now, the prejudice has been strongest that the most refined export of the Dominican Republic to Haiti and the Caribbean and European countries has been her sex workers. I always found that notion degrading, in spite of the fact that, while growing up, I have often heard Haitian men speak obligingly of the unsurpassed sexual expertise of Dominican sex workers in one bordello or another. Sure, I would think, Dominican women may place more cultural emphasis on looking sexy, dressing sexy, dancing sexy, acting sexy, than their Haitian counterparts, but what on earth would give them the gift of being better in bed between four walls, in the intimacy of a bedroom even if a public one? I have refused to subscribe to that belief, preferring to believe that all races have equal attributes in that regard.

But if Dominican women are successful businesswomen in Haiti, in beauty parlors or whatever, and assuming that Dominican men could be just as successful, does not this make the point that there is virtually no anti-dominican sentiment in Haiti? In fact, "antidominicanismo" is not a word in anyone's vocabulary. For every successful Dominican business in Haiti, I would like you to give me an example or two of a successful Haitian business in the Dominican Republic. Then and only then, would your argument that Dominicans make better neighbors than Haitians begin to deserve some consideration. At this time, you seem to be working to convince us otherwise... It's working.


Dear Clemente, did you ever ask yourself what would happen to the Dominican economy if all Haitian workers were to withdraw from your borders?

You have the stronger economy. That's why Haitians go there. Puerto-Rico has a stronger economy than the Dominican Republic. That's why Dominicans go there. The U.S. mainland has a stronger economy than Puerto-Rico. That's why Puerto-Ricans come here. Haiti has the poorest economy of all Caribbean countries. That's why Haitians go not only to the Dominican Republic but also to Jamaica, to the Bahamas, to Martinique and Guadeloupe, to Turks and Caicos, to Florida and everywhere else they can land, including Alaska (many Haitians worked on the Alaskan pipeline). We are industrious people. The only thing is, our various governments have not been keen on creating jobs and a wealth-sustaining economy for all the people. Now, there are various reasons for that. But if perchance the Haitian economy rebounded to the point of surpassing the Dominican economy, what would happen? Not only would Haitian people return voluntarily to Haiti, but a lot of Dominicans would be migrating to Haiti as well.

My dear Clemente, you may post another 5,000 Dominican press articles on this board to show that Haitians are bad neighbors (I will delete most of them, not because I wish to edit your views__they are very useful to me__but because you have abused your posting privileges before and are on the brink of doing so again). I do issue a unique Ann Pale invitation to you, however, and as many of your Dominican friends as you like: stop posting Dominican press articles in Spanish, which make this board appear even more cacophonous than seems to be its nature, but do come and present your arguments and grievances, like everyone else (that is, in your own words). We'll be happy to embrace your progressive ideas when you are ready to formulate some. We'll be waiting.

End of the Guy's report, Vol. 1 No. 1, September 15 2008

Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 8:27 am
by Guysanto
I remember you well. You were on this board before, a few years ago, posting dozens of long articles in Spanish. The common thread was that they were anti-Haitian. I removed them because I cannot open this board to all the languages in the world. Haitians do not commonly speak Spanish and therefore had less opportunity to respond to the poisonous statements that were being introduced. Thanks for your research on "Freedom of speech in the United States". Hopefully, you took note of the clause about "the use of untruths to harm others". In any case, I will continue to moderate this board according to my best judgment, as I always have. I don't have a problem with the expression of your own thoughts and sentiments. That allows me (and others) to counter them with our own or to refute them categorically with historical or sociological facts. People learn mostly from the disagreements of others and that's exactly what a forum is about.

You wrote to me recently and asked me to let you back in, as it has been a few years since you participated on this forum and you could not post any longer. I remembered you well, and still I reinstated your password. No, Clement, I am not confused. I do have a long memory for such things. Would you, as a Dominican, be a good neighbor to your hosts? Time will tell (and everyone will see for himself).

By the way, can you reveal the source of your statement that Duvalier murdered 50,000 mulattos? I do not think that anyone on this board is going to defend Duvalier, but your number is a bit suspect.

Also, when you say: [quote]Dominicans has with proud 3 blood source:
Arawak (Taino) White and Black. 1/3 each one of it.[/quote] do you realize how arbitrary that statement is? More than arbitrary, it is absurd!

Also, you state that "Haitians also has lots of dominican - blood." I do not know where you get that from, but so what? As far as I can tell, we have never been dominican-phobic. There are many mixed Dominican and Haitian marriages, and I don't see anything wrong with that. We are really ONE PEOPLE.

Like it or not, WE ARE TRULY ONE PEOPLE.

Let me close with what I had written to you before:
[quote]We have never preached hatred for the Dominican people. Yes, we are sensitive to the fact that "antihaitianismo" is alive and well in the Dominican Republic. No one seems more aware of it than many of my Dominican friends (like Mark T., Alba M., Kaity T.) and so many others in Brooklyn, NY and in New Jersey who continually protest the unfair treatment reserved for Haitian laborers and generations of Haitian migrants by the rich/manipulative/exploitative class and the poor/manipulated/exploited classes of Dominican society. My Dominican friends are not afraid to identify themselves as BLACK (not "indios" and other race-concealing names). They join Haitians hand in hand often weekly (and so for many years) to protest in front of the Dominican Consulate in Times Square, NY. They acknowledge the fact that we are TWO countries but ONE people, whose DNA lineage points mostly to Africa (and not Spain or other mostly white European countries). They are ashamed of the fact that many Haitians are routinely abused or killed indiscriminately in the most vicious cases of antihaitianismo which manifests itself on a daily basis in the Dominican press, TV, radio and cyberspace. My Dominican friends, brothers and sisters, want to put an end to the seemingly unending pattern of anti-Haitian prejudices that permeate deeply all institutions in the Dominican Republic, including the government, the judicial system, and the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.[/quote]

I hope you understand what I have written. I am all for SOLIDARITY between Dominicans and Haitians. Anything else is just a bad reading of History and a profound disservice to our people on whatever part of the island they happen to live.